This thread is about Turkish Dutch relationship and the huge roll Turks played in the creation of a independent Netherlands.


Liever Turks dan Paaps or in English "Rather Turkish than Papist", was a Dutch slogan during the Dutch Revolt of the end of the 16th century. The slogan was used by the Dutch mercenary naval forces in their fight against Catholic Spain.


As wrote the secretary of Jan van Nassau. William of Orange had already sent ambassadors to the Ottoman Empire for help in 1566, and it is speculated that it was in response to William's request that Selim II sent his fleet to attack the Spanish at Tunis in 1574.The Dutch saw Ottoman successes against the Habsburgs with great interest, and saw Ottoman campaigns in the Mediterranean as an indicator of relief on the Dutch front. William wrote around 1565:
"The Turks are very threatening, which will mean, we believe, that the king will not come to the Netherlands this year"
—Letter of William of Orange to his brother, circa 1565.

400 years of friendship

The relationship between the Netherlands and the Ottoman Empire began in the period of the independence struggle of the Netherlands against Spain in the 16th century. The efforts of the Netherlands to free themselves from the centralized management and the religious policies of Spain, the “protection of holy places and Muslims” policy of the Ottoman Empire, particularly the presence of more than 50 million Muslims among the population of the East Indies (Indonesia) and the West Indies (Caribbean) that fell under the domination of the Netherlands, can be seen as reasons for the rapprochement between the Ottoman Empire and the Netherlands in the period of the independence struggle. During the independence war of the Netherlands against Spain, the Netherlands received, especially in the period of Sokullu Mehmet Pasha, financial support from the Ottoman Empire. Because the Ottoman Empire had the largest territory in their history during that period, they possessed a great reputation against other countries. With the slogan “let them be Turks instead of Catholics” (Beter Turks dan Paaps) the Dutch sailors protected themselves against the Spanish warriors by hoisting the Turkish flag on their ships and with necklaces with the figure of a crescent moon around their necks.
Muslimani protenstantske

Following the sailing of The Lion of Thomas Wyndham in 1551,[41] and the 1585 establishment of the English Barbary Company, trade developed between England and the Barbary states, and especially Morocco.[42][43] Diplomatic relations and an alliance were established between Elizabeth and the Barbary states.[44] England entered in a trading relationship with Morocco detrimental to Spain, selling armour, ammunition, timber, metal in exchange for Moroccan sugar, in spite of a Papal ban,[45] prompting the Papal Nuncio in Spain to say of Elizabeth: "there is no evil that is not devised by that woman, who, it is perfectly plain, succoured Mulocco (Abd-el-Malek) with arms, and especially with artillery".[46]

In 1600, Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, the principal secretary to the Moroccan ruler Mulai Ahmad al-Mansur, visited England as an ambassador to the court of Queen Elizabeth I.[47][48] Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud spent 6 months at the court of Elizabeth, in order to negotiate an alliance against Spain.[40][49] The Moroccan ruler wanted the help of an English fleet to invade Spain, Elizabeth refused, but welcomed the embassy as a sign of insurance, and instead accepted to establish commercial agreements.[44][49] Queen Elizabeth and king Ahmad continued to discuss various plans for combined military operations, with Elizabeth requesting a payment of 100,000 pounds in advance to king Ahmad for the supply of a fleet, and Ahmad asking for a tall ship to be sent to get the money. Elizabeth "agreed to sell munitions supplies to Morocco, and she and Mulai Ahmad al-Mansur talked on and off about mounting a joint operation against the Spanish".[50] Discussions however remained inconclusive, and both rulers died within two years of the embassy.[51]

Collaboration between the Ottoman Empire and England[edit]

Ottoman carpets were a fashionable items in English painting in the 17th century. Richard Sackville, 3rd Earl of Dorset by William Larkin, 1613, standing on a Lotto carpet.
Diplomatic relations were established with the Ottoman Empire during the reign of Elizabeth, with the chartering of the Levant Company and the dispatch of the first English ambassador to the Porte, William Harborne, in 1578.[50] Numerous envoys were dispatched in both directions and epistolary exchanges occurred between Elizabeth and Sultan Murad III.[14] In one correspondence, Murad entertained the notion that Islam and Protestantism had "much more in common than either did with Roman Catholicism, as both rejected the worship of idols", and argued for an alliance between England and the Ottoman Empire.[15] To the dismay of Catholic Europe, England exported tin and lead (for cannon-casting) and ammunition to the Ottoman Empire, and Elizabeth seriously discussed joint military operations with Murad III during the outbreak of war with Spain in 1585, as Francis Walsingham was lobbying for a direct Ottoman military involvement against the common Spanish enemy.[52]

English writers of the period often expressed admiration towards the "Turks" and the "Ottoman Empire", describing it as endowed with "Majestical and August form and features" and being the "Powerfullest nation in Europe", saying that the Turks were "the only modern people, great in action- he who would behold these times in their greatest glory, could not find a better scene than Turky" and that they had "incredible civility".[53]

Iz priloženog se može vidjeti da je Osmanlijama pomogao raskol Crkve kako Pravoslavlja i Katoličanstva tako i Protestanske sekte.

Iz priloženog se može vidjeti da je Osmanlijama pomogao raskol Crkve kako Pravoslavlja i Katoličanstva tako i Protestanske sekte.

Engleska *** neće dati.

Da pa opće poznata stvar Turci su čak i naoružavali protestante, isto kao što je poznato da su križari u počecima imali velike uspjehe na Bliskom Istoku zbog nesloge lokalnih muslimana.

To je ona Pomozi sebi pa će ti i Bog pomoći, jer ako se jedno društvo ruje međusobno npr vjera dijeli na sekte lakše je ranjiva.

Oćel kraljica Elizabeta doživit srčani ako se Škotska odvoji?

Nisam siguran u ishod, ali bi želio da se odvoje, neka malo mečka igra u englesko dvorište.

Mada mi žao Španije pošto ukoliko referendum bude supješan ode im država na par komada.

OK, wtf. tema o referendumu u Škotskoj, a ovaj tamo gore posta pizdarije o Nizozemcima i Turcima koje nemaju veze sa vezom.


Što se same teme tiče, volio bih da se osamostale, pogotovo što su oni, za razliku od Engleza, pro-EU nastrojeni, a usto, većina naftnih izvora je u njihovom području, što bi bio znatan ekonomski udar na tada krnji UK.

No uglavnom, još je manje od tjedan dana do izbora, pa ćemo vidjeti dali će se ova zastava samostalne Škotske ikada viti...

Prvo sam pisao o protestanstvu i pogledu na katoličanstvo pa sam uzeo primjer Holandije a tek kasnije Engleske.

A i ti ga nalupa.

Šta tvrdiš da dio Škota koji pripadaju Škotskoj Crkvi nisu Unionisti upravo zbog vjerskih razloga?
Pa Englezi su upravo pokorili Škotsku širenjem protestantizma i od osvajača dobili status dobročinitelja kao i Turci u BiH.
Škotsku upravo pokoravaju naoružavajući protestante u borbi protic katolika, a progoni traju i dugo nakon unije.

Da u Škotskoj protestanti nisu većina davno bi se odvojili kao i Irci i to oružjem.

Šta je onda sa Sjevernom Irskom, zašto se ne ujedine sa ostalim Ircima, zašto im je draže biti sa drugim narodom iste vjere nego sa sunarodnjacima različite.

I sve da se osamostale, šta misliš da se Engleska i dalje neće upletati u političke prilike u Škotskoj?
Unionističke stranke sa sjedištem u Londonu će i dalje djelovati i imati značajnu ulogu u političkom životu možebitno neovisne Škotske.

Skoti su prezbeterijanci uglavnom, a ne anglikanci.

Nakon toga nema smisla dalje ništa objašnjavati.

protestanti u Sjevernoj Irskoj su uglavnom Skoti, pa Englezi, najmanje je tu autohtonih Iraca koji su prigrlili protestantizam. Ulster je koloniziran.

Mišljenje koje se čekalo.

Zato smatram da se na ankete i ne treba pretjerano obazirati. Pravo stanje stvari ćemo saznati tek u četvrtak, pa se možemo jedino nadati najboljem.

S druge strane neki su ovdje uspoređivali Irce i Škote, prozivajući Škote za kukavičluk, ovo i ono.
Na stranu to što su mi Irci izuzetno simpatičan narod evo jedne pitanje : Što ako referendum prođe, Škoti izglasaju nezavisnost, tko je onda povijesni pobjednik? Irci kojima se unatoč otporu domovina razdijelila na dva dijela i koji će čekati puno stoljeće ako ne i više prije ujedinjenja domovine ili Škoti koji su bez kapi prolivene krvi dobili nezavisnost na čitavom svome povijesnom području?

Gdje na netu jeftino kupiti zastave Škotske i Katalonije?

Jel neko nudi popust za oba artikla odjednom?

Škotsku imaš na Yes Scotland, no nije baš povoljno, dok katalonske potraži na ebayu i sličnim servisima, trebale bi biti povoljne. Mi smo Esteladu uzeli za 5€ u Barceloni.

Nisu oni džaba s Englezima bili 300 godina zajedno, na stranici za YES imas SHOP opciju...

52 funte???

http://www.flagsonline.it/

11 ojra plus 5 poštarine.

Škotska Crkva je utemeljenja 1582. i kao takva je samostalna Crkva potestantske zajednice.
Prezbiterijanci su u uniji sa ostalim reformiranim crkvama anglikancima, kalvinima i metodistima.
Prezbiterijanizam je izvorni britanski oblik protestantizma, i obično se koristi za škotske i engleske crkve koje prihvaćaju taj naziv za vrijeme engleskog građanskog rata (1642–1651).
Prezbiterijanska Crkva osigurala je prevlast potpisom Unije 1707. i kreiranjem Velike Britanije i tada postaje glavna religija u Škotskoj.
Postiji i Irska Crkva koju su Englezi kreirali s istem ciljem kao i u Škotskoj ali nije imala ni približno uspjeha kao u Škotskoj.
Englezi je utemeljuju u 17. st. a i danas je najbrojnija potestantska zajednica u Republici Irskoj.

I šta po tebi nema veze što su prezbiterijanci dobili prevlast u Škotskoj uz pomoć monarhije i sam monarh joj garantira sigurnost.
Misliš da su škotski prezbiterijanci bliži katolicima i neovisnosti nego anglikancima i Uniji?

Koliko ja znam svi navijači Rangersa su protestanti i sasvim je jasno tko je za Uniju samo ti tvrdiš nešto suprotno.
Pa više od 90% ovih protestanata je za Uniju i o neovisnosti će odlučiti religiozno neizjašnjeni i glavno je pitanje dali će kod njih prevladati nacionalni osjećaj ili financijski interes.

Najnovije ankete 54% Za neovisnost

Neću ništa reći da ne ureknem.

Sveti Ante ako si u stanju, daj da Škoti Englezima košaricu daju.

Ima i novijih, koje kažu drugačije.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_po ... ndum,_2014

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... acker.html

Po telegraphu kaže 54% za, po drugima 42% za 49% ne . Klasični rat anketama i pozivi na mobilizaciju.


Amen