I was thinking about this today. All of my family is from Herceg Bosna (Tomislavgrad and Grude mostly but some today live in Croatia and in the diaspora like me) and both sides of my family were always in support of the Croatian identity, community, and history in BiH ( nobody was ever a Yugo or even a partisan). Yet, my dad's side of the family tends to sometimes argue with my mom's side of the family over Croatian politics in BiH/HB. Why? Because dad's side were HOSovci loyal to the ideals of Blaz Kraljevic and mom's side were loyal to HZHB/HRHB. The biggest difference is the vision of Croatdom in BiH. Dad's side seems to be more accepting of HSP view of HR do Drine and Bosniaks being our brothers we should embrace and opposes the partition of Bosnia with the Serbs while Mom's side strongly dislikes Bosniaks (even more than Serbs in some cases) and prefers the partition of Bosnia with the Serbs with HRHB becoming independent, part of Croatia, or at least vastly autonomous.

Does anyone else have this 'divide' in their family? Honestly, I see both points of view and I don't know which side of the spectrum I personally support since I'm sort of 'torn.' I don't feel good about giving up large chunks of historical Croatian land to the Serbs ( especially Posavina in RS) just so we can have a Hercegovina based independent entity but I also don't trust the Bosniaks and the influx of radical Islam into the country and don't think Blaz Kraljevic's vision of Bosnjaci and Hrvati on the same page for Cro-BiH together is a reality. I think its terrible that Blaz was murdered and I consider that backstabbing dishonorable. Am I wrong? I'd love to get other perspectives.

Right on the top, "Pretražnik" - keyword(s).
There is no need to repeat what has been said long time ago.

There are divided views at my work too. Some colleagues of mine (I'm located in Bosnia and Herzegovina) are of the opinion that Serbs are the main political enemies of BH Croats and thus Bosniaks are less dangerous for us. I think, they are uninformed, because they monitor the Croatian media (from Republic of Croatia) and have no clue about dangerous Bosniac policy towards BH Croats, which includes hegemony, unitarianism and open hate. Bosniacs want Bosnia and Herzegovina exclusively for themselves and BH Croats and Serbs are just nuisances on that path of hegemony.
Ignorance of political circumstances and current events in B&H is the main weakness of most BH Croats. Maybe, lack of media support for BH Croats is the main reason for that.

In the end, your mom's side of family is fully right.

@lider30

I completely understand what you're saying. I also acknowledge the world of real politik and believe the views of some of the HOS supporters/members on my dad's side have an unrealistic and romantic view of Croats & Bosniaks in BiH. I talk to my mom's side far more about it than my fathers side since most of my father's side lives in Croatia (RH) now while mom's side is still wholly in HB (Grude) and a few of them are HVO veterans.

The situation on the ground is quite different, at least in Herzegovina. Mostar is still divided and the Bosniaks are having a hard time accepting it's practically become a Croatian majority city (which is a pretty big deal). But then again I know Croats and Bosniaks in Novi Travnik and they seem to be more friendly than in some other places.

Anyway, I understand the situation as it is now and that it's pretty naive and self-destructive to put any faith in the Bosniaks to ally with us against the Serbs. As it stands now the Serbs don't care and at least in Bosnia do not really seem to have a bone to pick with us. Most of our disputes are over the 51% of the "Federation" we share with the Bosniaks. But I'm also thinking about the past. Is there an argument to be made that HB Croats made a mistake by getting rid of Blaz Kraljevic and opting for a partition with the Serbs? How would things be different (better or worse) if Bosniaks and Croats were on the same page everywhere throughout the war?

What is/was your opinion of Blaz Kraljevic if I could ask?

Your mom's side is right. Your dad's views are outdated, ever since WW2 ended. Muslims are now nation on their own, and they don't want nothing in common with Croats. Your dad may call them Croats all he wants, but this is not the name they want to embrace. This view of them as Croats leads to wrong conclusion in present-day politics. Your mother's view is on the spot.

Though, I understand your father, especially if he is a long-time emigrant. They tend to be... above average right-wingers.

This is what I keep hearing, these 'views' are out of date. My dad's side would agree to an extent but also blame the communists for warping the minds of Bosniaks. Some people on my dad's side believe Mate Boban was a communist hack but I recognize that as probably clawing at extreme excuses. The HOS unit some of my relos joined had maybe 1/3 Muslims which wasn't exactly a small number. These Muslims felt more loyalty to HOS than the radical extremist Izetbegovic. Even today a couple of these Muslims are friends with some relos that live in the diaspora and they feel loyalty to Croatdom (the old Croatdom and not Tudjman's/Boban's states) than this new Bosniakdom.

But your point still stands as does the point my mom's side makes. Those Muslim/Bosniaks loyal to 'old Croatia' are in the extreme minority and most of them would rather cheer Turkey and allow Saudi Arabs to live freely in BiH feeling closer to them than to 'old brothers.'

The ONLY question I have is that even though the Bosniaks were brainwashed significantly, especially during the communist days, did the hard-line Catholic-only stances of the HRHB destroy any chance of real cooperation? Some HOS even say Tudjman/Boban's Hrvati were responsible for the Bosniak conflict while HVO veterans say it was the Islamic policies of Alija that drove the Croats away from any confidence in that government. Personally I agree more with Alija and Islamism being the main cause (plus communist brainwashing too) but I think the prior is also a valid question.

Ah fuck me for being the child of two families with very different Croatian views. lol.

We could say, his dad would like to eat his cake and have it too.
And additional, probably dad would like OHR pays the cake.

Problematic is there are not enough Croats to eat the whole cake. So his dad would be forced to leave America, eat whatever he likes to eat, and enjoy Drina panoramic view.

Blaž Kraljević was killed because he did not chose HVO's command. He chosed muslim's command. War between muslims and Croats has nothing to do with his murder, or "partition" of BiH. It began long before that.

Why I have feeling you are not the one you pretend you are, Becar Stari !!??

I know with certainty that Muslims had orders to fulfill units of the HOS as much as possible in Čapljina, and some other Herzegovinian towns, and I think Mostar is included as well. The plan was to raise a rebellion against the HVO or the Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia, which would be led by the HOS and Blaž Kraljević. Kraljević often had meetings with Sefer Halilović, commander-in-chief of the Muslim army, he was even named a major general by Izetbegović. The SIS (HVO's military intelligence) was aware of this plan, and you can even find their notes about this plan at the Slobodan Praljak's web site.

Perhaps Kraljević was, so to say, with all due respect, a useful idiot, who really believed that he will resurrect the Independent State of Croatia, and there were probably Muslims who shared this idea - no doubt in my mind, but they were all used in order to start a rebellion in Herzegovina area where there's a significant Muslim population, in towns like Čapljina, Stolac, Mostar etc. This plan was made after the Operation June Dawns (Lipanjske zore), in which Croat forces liberated Western Herzegovina from the Yugoslav People's Army.

The story goes, the HVO held several negotiations with Kraljević to get him on their side, but he refused every time. Motives for refusals can be various, either he really believed he is fighting for the Independent State of Croatia or he was aware that he is being an instrument of Izetbegović to undermine the HVO and Herzeg-Bosnia. Eventually, preparations for a new military operation came (I forgot the name of this operation). And this was the last time the leadership of the HVO held negotiations with Kraljević. They tried to persuade him to join them in this operation and subordinate himself to the command of the HVO, while he and members of his unit would maintain their military ranks and autonomy. Kraljević again refused.

Also, to get the whole picture, the Kraljević's HOS served as a safe haven for criminals of all sorts. The most notorious one is probably Edib (or Edin) Buljubašić, who murdered his father and wife, I think. The HOS members were involved in theft, robberies, they killed Serb civilans, burnt down the medieval Serb church in Mostar (Saborna crkva), etc.

And to finish the story, Kraljević for the last time refused to subordinate himself and to participate in this military operation. The HVO ordered his arrest and to detain him in Split. And, as his car passed by the check point guarded by Kažnjenička bojna (Convicts' Batallion), he was killed. Accidentally or not, no one cannot say. The HOS had history of violating check points, and it cannot be excluded that Kraljević's driver done the same when Kraljević was killed.

Please don't insult me or my family or insinuate I have fake intentions. My overall conclusion is that I agree with the HRHB position like my family members that were HVO veterans and fought for Croats in BiH. I was merely asking if other people experienced some of the same differences in viewpoints in their own families here. It was merely a question and I don't know why you would react that way.

Nobody thinks about HOS anymore.
And communists did not ruin muslims, islam did it.

Thanks for this info, it's very useful and I definitely want to look into it more. I can tell you for a fact my family had nothing to do with criminal activity and burning down Orthodox churches. The HOS members of my family were concentrated in disputed territory against the Serbs (Jajce area) and in RH itself against the Serb rebel state. They also were not under the direct command of Kraljevic. I don't know all the details as they never really laid it all out but they didn't participate in criminal activity unless you consider smuggling weapons into Croat territory (which also supplied the HVO) 'criminal activity.' ;)

I've heard similar explanations about Kraljevic from my HVO family members too especially about being a naive but 'useful idiot' for the Izetbegovic regime. Yes, fighting for "NDH" is naive but our members of HOS really believed a unitary state between HR and BiH was possible once the Cetnik aggression was defeated.

You probably know more than I do but I have a hard time seeing Kraljevic himself and a lot of HOS members as criminals though criminals were rampant almost everywhere (also in the Serb and Muslim ranks) as these lowlifes tend to profit from war. From what I understand there was also political tension between the HDZ and HSP in Croatia as well as BiH which made a united command structure even more difficult.

Some of my mother's relatives refer to the Ravno massacre as a trigger point for the Croatian distrust of Sarajevo when Alija infamously quoted it 'wasn't their war' even though Croatian civilians were massacred on BiH territory signaling to the Croats that Izetbegovic's government didn't care what happened to the Croats, only the Muslims.

I'd say a mixture of both. Communism helped them get a separate identity while Islam radicalized them especially in the 90s. Islam is a shit religion and I completely agree with you on that. ;)

What are you ? Some kind of "Shape your identity or I will shape you, almighty God".

Of course majority of the HOS members weren't criminals, I wasn't saying that. About the HOS in Central Bosnia, they were really independent from Kraljević, and were first to subordinate themselves to the HVO.

I'm Croat. I don't get the reference though.

A couple of my relatives went to Croatia after early conflict in Bosnia and enlisted into the HV proper and trained in it till 1995 when the HV/HVO liberated Croatia and parts of BiH.

I meant those fairy tales. You have to change 2 nations, not one. What is not possible anymore. You waste your and our time.

Bola BBC, it seems you have a lot of personal problems. If you don't like discussion, ignore it. Simple as that.

An idealistic and romantic warrior, with a completely outdated attitude. He could ruin the whole thing with his affection to fascist regime and NDH. It could compromise the fight for independence and recognition of Croatia.
His fight was doomed in advance.

I think this is what it boils down to and well said. This is the same argument I use with some of my HSP/HOS supporting family. No nation would support Croatian independence if the Croat leadership supported a new NDH policy and it would confirm the Serb propaganda that Croats were fascist.

Diplomacy was/is important which is why Croat leaders in BiH today really need to think critically before making any sudden moves.

In the worst case, we could have had a civil war and bloodshed between two different fractions of Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina, like the Muslims had, if Kraljevic's fraction was allowed to develop:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomou ... ern_Bosnia

Kraljevic was something like Al Nusra within Syrian rebels, in today's Syria.
The ideas of NDH (associated with fascism) and controlling the whole B&H were ridiculous, as Croats represented 17% of B&H population, dispersed around the country and with everlasting slow decrease in population. We were, by far, the weakest ethnic group in the country, by many criteria. In a unitary republic, with no autonomy or political mechanisms, and no big city or any significant institutions under our control.

In 1991, Muslims were a fully formed, self-aware and recognized nation, entering national romanticism (which other nations were finished with in the 19th century), starting writing their own new history books according to which Croats (and Serbs) do not exist in Bosnia... They were not stupid, they were very well aware of the fact that they formed 50% of the country's population which was growing, a majority in almost all big cities, and like any other ethnic group would, they saw an opportunity in it. They changed their nation's name to reflect their new ambitions to get the whole "Bosnia" for themselves, by slow and smart politics.

Kraljevic and NDH fans kind of always had assumed that most Muslims were a stupid bunch of people with no identity.

They were not stupid for sure, and their identity at that time was irreversibly complete, matured, and ready for even more advanced, expansionistic form: they wanted a country for themselves, and they wanted it as big as possible. It was always just about that.
And here we are today... everything about their politics ultimately boils down to the territory and wanting control of more territory.

Does a territory obsessed, politically aggressive nation (let's neglect islamism for a while) sound like someone who wants to "integrate into a Croat nation"? (even if we wanted to have 2 million nominal Croats of islamic faith - and we don't)
It's basically the same kind of aspirations the Serbs and Milosevic had 1990.

That expansionism needs to be suppressed.

In some parts of Bosnia, especially in central parts, ex HOS Muslim soldiers became most radical islamists. I had a contact with a group of 3-4 HOS soldiers from Zenica, somewhere in winter 1992/1993, and they were everything but pro-croatian. Ex HOS Muslims created Muslim HOS (MOS) and committed a lot of war crimes against Croats in 1993.




Total Bullshit.

Additionally, they have changed their people name from Muslims (Bosnian Muslims) to Bosniacs in 1993. in order to deceive the international public. Bosnia = Bosniacs.

Muslims joined HOS in Croatian municipalities to avoid being called to front line by HVO.
Then Croats in HOS went to the front line, muslims gave shifts around HOS command, and visited prisons to beat Serbs prisoners.