To što je ljudska spoznaja ograničena ne mijenja činjenicu da te pojave čovječanstvo danas razumije puno bolje nego prije 500 ili 1000 godina. A to nismo postigli oslanjanjem na vjerske tekstove i dogme, niti nam je objavljeno s neba.




Apsolutno. Da odeš do nekog izoliranog plemena u prašumi i pokažeš im televizor, ljudi ne bi imali drugog objašnjenja nego da je riječ o magiji, nadanaravnom, čudu...

To što ljudi u određenom trenutku ili stupnju razvoja nemaju objašnjenje za nešto ne znači odmah da je uzrok nadnaravan ili mističan.

Sreća, danas smo slobodno biti religiozni i vjerovati u čuda, a nekada se zbog nekih viceva ili pjevanja išlo u Ćelovinu!
Istina, i sada neki pokušavaju onemogućiti spominjanje Božića i Božićnih blagdana, davanje imena: Marija, Ivan, ... svojoj djeci i td.
Više o tome možete čuti na FOKUSU:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYUW1Gb7CW8
16,882 views, Dec 22, 2021

Opet duplikat greškom.

Televizor i jeste cudo! Nije stvar u tome mozes li da objasnis cudo ili ne mozes.
Stvar je u stavu. Ako si nadmen i ne zelis da se zacudis i zadivis cinjenici da je stvoren televizor, da je to neko zamislio, da su se razne okolnosti poklopile, onda ti i nije cudo.
Sa takvim stavom, cak i kad bi Isus pred tobom izveo pretvaranje vode u vino, ti bi rekao: pa to je Isusova priroda, prirodno je da on to moze. Nije to nikakvo cudo.

Tako se budale inace smiju nauci. (Ne sad da tebe smatram budalom, vec samo kazem.)

Ok, ako nešto smatram čudom to je biodiverzitet. Toliko različitih živih bića na planeti (sa mačkama kao šampionima lepote, snage i gracioznosti).

Mjau

Tehnički, i nije čudo. Slabija sila se uvijek povinuje jačoj. A zna se Tko je najjača sila u i izvan svemira.

Opet- ne da mi se prevoditi što sam napisao o tim temama.Pravo "čudo" nisu ove dosta plitke stvari, neg ono o čem govore iskustva philosphie perennis..

Basically, it is: is our empirical reality this 3-dimensional space, or do we live in a box, i.e. a segment of reality available to our senses, but that’s just a part of it all?

In case of the 1st approach, both “spiritual” transpersonal experiences of humans are just a projection of our changed brain chemistry (essentially, good & bad trips of a junkie) & UFOs, even if they exist, are also not more than 3-dimensional space travelers coming from some distant place (or places).

As for the 2nd approach, we live in a box of multidimensional reality, with “additional” dimensions already present, now- but we can’t experience them because our senses are attuned only to the 3-dimensional world. A metaphor illustrating such approach could be, say, atom at the lowest energy level. Without infusion of “external” energy, atom will remain at the lowest level. UFOs, in that view, are, perhaps, travelers from extra-dimensions.

This should not be confused with the multiverse hypothesis in physics, because so called multiverse is basically a multiplicity of universes, and not the actual multiverse with more than 3 dimensions.

So, I’ll just give readable literature, plus two passages of transpersonal experiences that could be interpreted as you wish.




AT HE BEGINNING of 1944 I broke my foot, and this misadventure was followed by a heart attack. In a state of unconsciousness I experienced deliriums and visions which must have begun when I hung on the edge of death and was being given oxygen and camphor injections. The images were so tremendous that I myself concluded that I was close to death. My nurse afterward told me, “It was as if you were surrounded by a bright glow/* That was a phenomenon she had sometimes observed in the dying, she added. I had reached the outermost limit, and do not know whether I was in a dream or an ecstasy. At any rate, extremely strange things began to happen to me.

It seemed to me that I was high up in space. Far below I saw the globe of the earth, bathed in a gloriously blue light. I saw the deep blue sea and the continents. Far below my feet lay Ceylon, and in the distance ahead of me the subcontinent of India. My field of vision did not include the whole earth, but its global shape was plainly distinguishable and its outlines shone with a silvery gleam through that wonderful blue light.
…………………..
Later I discovered how high in space one would have to be to have so extensive a view approximately a thousand miles! The sight of the earth from this height was the most glorious tiling I had ever seen.
…………………………………………….
As I approached the steps leading up to the entrance into the rock, a strange thing happened: I had the feeling that everything was being sloughed away; everything I aimed at or wished for or thought, the whole phantasmagoria of earthly existence, fell away or was stripped from me an extremely painful process. Nevertheless something remained; it was as if I now carried along with me everything I had ever experienced or done, everything that had happened around me. I might
also say: it was with me, and I was it. I consisted of all that, so to speak. I consisted of my own history, and I felt with great certainty: this is what I am. “I am this bundle of what has been, and what has been accomplished.”
……………………………………………..
While I was thinking over these matters, something happened that caught my attention. From below, from the direction of Europe, an image floated up. It was my doctor, Dr. H. or, rather, his likeness framed by a golden chain or a golden laurel wreath. I knew at once: “Aha, this is my doctor, of course, the one who has been treating me. But now he is coming in his primal form, as a basileus of Kos. In life he was an avatar of this basileus, the temporal embodiment of the primal form, which has existed from the beginning. Now he is appearing in that primal form’

Presumably I too was in my primal form, though this was something I did not observe but simply
took for granted. As he stood before me, a mute exchange of thought took place between us. Dr. H. had been delegated by the earth to deliver a message to me, to tell me that there was a protest against my going away, I had no right to leave the earth and must return.
………………………………………
In reality, a good three weeks were still to pass before I could truly make up my mind to live again.
I could not eat because all food repelled me. The view of city and mountains from my sick-bed seemed to me like a painted curtain with black holes in it, or a tattered sheet of newspaper full of photographs that meant nothing. Disappointed, I thought, “Now I must return to the *box system* again.” For it seemed to me as if behind the horizon of the cosmos a three-dimensional world had been artificially built up, in which each person sat by himself in a little box. And now I should have to convince myself all over again that this was important!

Life and the whole world struck me as a prison, and it bothered me beyond measure that I should again be finding all that quite in order. I had been so glad to shed it all, and now it had come about that I along with everyone else would again be hung up in a box by a thread.





Here is now the account of a contemporary experience, that which W.L. Wilmhurst, the author of Contemplations, had it in a country church when he sang the Te Deum. He noticed, “in the nave, on his side, a bluish smoke coming out from among the stones of the floor. ), violet in color, completely different from any kind of physical steam (…). Thinking that it was an optical defect or an illusion of the moment, I looked further along the nave, but also there was the same fog (…) I noticed the amazing fact that it extended beyond the walls and the roof of the building and that it was not limited by them. I could look through the walls and see the landscape beyond them (… ) I saw simultaneously with all parts of the body and not only with the eyes (…). And despite this intense perceptual power, I lost neither contact with the physical environment nor my sensory faculties (…). I felt overwhelmed by an unspeakable happiness and an extraordinary sense of peace. At that very moment, the blue and bright fog that surrounded me and everything around me turned into a golden halo, a light that cannot be described in words (…). The golden light, which the violet mist now seemed only to have hidden or extended to the outer edge, sprang from a huge bright central globe (…). But the most wonderful thing was that these rays and these waves of light, this vast surface of the photosphere and the great central globe itself were full of silhouettes of living creatures (…). A single coherent organism that filled all the space, an organism formed nevertheless by an infinity of individual existences (…).

In addition, I saw that these beings were present by the billions in the church I was in; that they intertwined and that they passed without difficulty both through me and through the other people (…). The celestial army passed through the crowd as the wind passed through a clump of trees.

This vision was followed by another, in which everything related to time and space disappeared from my consciousness, leaving in place only “ineffable and eternal things.” And consciousness made a leap to its extreme limit and passed into the area of ​​formless and the Uncreated.” Then I ceased to be aware of the surrounding physical world, but the absence lasted only a few moments, for when I recovered, the Te Deum was not over.

Hrobi, je l' ti ponestalo argumentacije pa unistavas diskusiju tekstom kojeg niko nece citati?
Zasto ne bi pokusao da se spustis iz oblaka jalovog intelektualizma i pokusao da se referises na neki od komentara ucesnka u diskusiji, ma kako "plitkim" ga oznacavao?

Pazi kad sam ga pročitala. Stvarno zanimljive senzacije.

Ajde ukratko prepricaj...

Ma kakvi, ne volim da kucam previše.

Čuda nije lako definirati.

Zapravo, ona ovise o tom kako ljudi poimaju svijet.

Racionalisti, korjeniti, ne vjeruju u čuda. Spinoza je u 17. šutnut iz sinagoge jer je racionalno tumačio npr. izlazak Hebreja iz Egipta. Po njemu, možda je to i bilo, no vjetar zapuhao pa se more povuklo, Hebreji zbrisali, a Egipćane potopio povratni val, kao cunami u ovim katastrofama.

To je racionalno objašnjenje.

I teologija mu je bila smiješna, jer je Spinozi bilo komično da se Bog nešto premišlja ili ljuti- to je kao da ima bradu ili da se češka po ćelici.
Spinozin Bog je nešto kao Tao Lao-Cea, ništa transcendentno, nego inherentna inteligencija svijeta. Nema nevidljivih svjetova, oblika života, besmrtnosti...

Sv. Toma Akvinski je sličan temperament, iako uz dosta razlika. Tomi je Bog u prirodnim zakonima. Po Tomi, ni Bog ne može učiniti da je 2 i 2 jednako 7, jer to je besmisleno, kao ona pitanje može li Bog napraviti kamen koji ne može podići ili počiniti samoubojstvo.

No Toma ima raj, pakao, nevidljive svjetove, besmrtnost.... No čuda ga baš ne impresioniaraju.

Čuda su, zapravo, za sve vjernike, intruzija onostranog u empirijski svijet što remeti prirodni poredak. I zato što ljudi više znaju, čuda izmiču u polja "čudesnih ozdravljenja" i sl. Prije su mogli vjerom pomaknuti planine, no sad su se povukli.

Sada čuda su uglavnom na polju zdravlja ljudi koji su bili otpisani.
Od nekog broja čuda, skoro sam siguran da postoji rašljarenje- bio sam tom nazočan- no to nije čudo, to je nešto u prirodi što još ne znamo.

Drago mi je, kad se mogu usuglasiti sa nekim s kojim inaće nisam istomišljenik!
Aleksije, lijepi pozdrav!

Pitanje je bilo vjerujemo li u nadnaravna čuda.

Nema ništa nadnaravno u izumu i funkcioniranju televizora. Televizor može biti samo 'čudo' tehnike u kolokvijalnom smislu, a ovdje ne pričamo o toj vrsti 'čuda'.



Ne, nego bih pomislio da je riječ o standardnom mađioničarskom triku. Možda je bio u dogovoru s poslugom, možda su posude imale duplo dno, možda su neprimjetno zamijenjene s drugima...

Čovječanstvo nikada ne bi došlo do čuda televizora da ljudi nisu postavljali takva pitanja i tražili prirodna objašnjenja dotad neobjašnjenih fenomena.

Nadnaravna čuda, polazi od pretpostavke da priroda nije čudo.

Kako se možete ne čuditi prirodi.

Divim se i čudim. Priroda jeste čudo. Jedino što autor teme nije mislio na takva čuda.

Igrate se s definicijama. "Čudo" je po definiciji stvar mimo prirode i prirodnih zakona, a tako je i tema postavljena.

Pojedini bi raspravljali na razini:

1. Cvijet pored ceste je čudo.
2. Podizanje 500 kila s malim prstom je čudo.

Zaključak: Ako postoji cvijet pored ceste, tko smo mi da sumnjamo da je netko podigao 500 kila malim prstom.




Nema na svijetu mentalno zdrave osobe koja se ne čudi prirodi.

Naravno. Bozija kreacija je cudo.
Zamisli da su sve te tvoje macke i sva raznovrsnost prirode sastavljene od samo tri elementarne cestice: protona, elektrona i neutrona!
Te tri cestice, a mozda i samo jedna (meni nepoznata), cine ceo vidljivi svet oko tebe sa svim njegovim zivotnim ciklusima i raznovsnim oblicima. Kako je moguce da se tri cestice tako multiplikuju i organzuju da cine to sto cine? Sve po odredjenom planu i zakonu.
A ako je Plan, onda ima i Planer. Zasto Njega iskljuciti kad je Njegovo delo ustvari najvece cudo.

Točno Aleksije!
Temu sam počeo sa:
BOŽIĆNO ČUDO NA OKITU KRAJ VODICA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvwZOV6DGiga
nastavio sa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTQcY8Rj2Zc
kompletirao sa:
Zašto je Isus rekao da je On Put, Istina i Život?
https://www.novizivot.net/isus-put-istina-zivot/
Rezimirao sa, O zabrani Božića:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYUW1Gb7CW8
Svim ljudima dobre volje želim,
Sretan i vesel Božoć sa obiljem milosrđa u Novoj 2022 godini!

Ne možeš me prevesti na taj način razmišljanja pa da se na glavu postaviš.