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 Naslov: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 04 svi 2015, 15:30 
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Pridružen/a: 18 kol 2009, 16:38
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I did not post the article here but I have a link to it. Discuss.

http://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Regio ... nia-160997


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 Naslov: Re: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 05 svi 2015, 05:05 
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Pridružen/a: 18 kol 2009, 16:38
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Citat:
The BH Croats are the result of merging the romantic integral Party-of-Rights Croatianism of Ante Starčević with the political Catholicism appearing on the historical stage by the end of the 19th and the early 20th century.


Citat:
The Croatization of Bosniak-Catholics commenced at the turn of the 19th and 20th century – in the early stages of the industrialization and modernization of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and has brought about consequences of political, cultural and psychological nature. The then commenced process of cultural standardization and equalization will eventually - by converting the Bosniak Catholics to Croat-Catholics - result in a core change of terms such as ‘historical land’, ‘homeland’, ‘culture’ and ‘state’ for a trans-generational transformation of their political and cultural tradition.


I find this interesting as Lovrenović regurgutates the same things that I have read in the past from sources loyal to Sarajevo saying how Catholics were turned into Croats, etc.

I hate to have to be the one to point this out but almost all of Europe in the 19th Century was swept up with national revival movements which went from one end of Europe to the other - BiH was not immune or lived in a vacuum outside of it.

People were casting aside their own local and provincial identities and adopting larger identities. Bavarians became German and Lombards became Italian.

If people think it was somehow strange for Catholics in BiH to be turned into Croatians or that it was some cultural imperialism, fine. In the 19th century people became modern Germans, modern Frenchmen, etc as we now know them so given the time it was neither unusual or unprecedented for Catholics in Bosnia to be "turned" into Croatians. Consider the words of Massimo d'Azeglio an Italian statesman who had this to say after Italian unification in 1861: "We have made Italy. Now we must make Italians."

I won't get into the Croatian National Revival but even without it, look at the social and technological advancements that were being inplemented right on the doorstep of Bosnia. Feudalism was abolished midway through the 19th century in Austria-Hungary. In Bosnia I think it was abolished with the agararian reform in the 1920's almost 100 years later. There is no way the Ottomans could have isolated Bosnia from being exposed to these changes.

I could just imagine the conversation being had with someone crossing the Sava into Slavonija in the 19th century and a local who told them they now own their own land and their children have to go get educated and everything else that is going on, and for the man to cross back across the Sava into Bosnia to where he was a 2nd class citizen.

I'm sure he would think that life wasn't fair. Maybe that person thought what if I could be Croatian then I could be free?

No Lovrenović is right that there was a profound change. People got tired of being beat down and decided to do something about it - hence the uprising in Herzegovina that would kick the Ottomans out once and for all and usher in a new era for the region.

Yet despite attempts by Austria and Hungeary to foster a pan Bosnian consciousness the Croatians of BiH wanted no part of it. That they did not want to be reminded of a time when they were 2nd class citizens.

Being a Croatian meant you were free. It meant being part of a larger whole. It meant a two way exchange of culture and ideas. It meant progress.


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 Naslov: Re: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 05 svi 2015, 11:42 
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Pridružen/a: 12 lip 2009, 12:19
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Lokacija: Croatia Alba; site:hercegbosna.org/forum
Stecak je napisao/la:
Being a Croatian meant you were free. It meant being part of a larger whole. It meant a two way exchange of culture and ideas. It meant progress.


Catholics in Bosnia and Herzegovina were part of the Croatian cultural space way before the 19th century.

For example Franciscan friar Nikola Lašvanin in his chronicle extensively uses the works of Pavao Ritter-Vitezović (the main Croatian proto-nationalist, author of Croatia rediviva) as a frame for his chronicle and he is not the only one. All of the other Bosnian and Herzegovinian Catholic chroniclers (Beno Benić, Marijan Bogdanović) in the 18th century Bosnia and Herzegovina did the same. The three of them (Lašvanin, Benić and Bogdanović) were residing in precisely the three Franciscan convents Lovrenović mentions: Fojnica, Kraljeva Sutjeska, Kreševo. Each one was from a different convent (monastery).
https://ottomanhistorians.uchicago.edu/sites/ottomanhistorians.uchicago.edu/files/lasvanin_en.pdf

After all, half of modern-day Croatia was until mid-18th c. (Dalmatia until 1735 and Slavonia until 1757) a part of the same Franciscan province (Province of Bosna Argentina) which covered modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH) and which was the only Catholic institution tolerated by the Ottomans on the territory of modern-day BiH and Croatia occupied by them.

And most of the Franciscan convents of that province were located in modern-day Croatia (in Dalmatia and Slavonia).


Chronology:
http://www.bosnasrebrena.ba/v2010/povijest-provincije/kronoloski-pregled-dogadjaja.html


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 Naslov: Re: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 05 svi 2015, 13:12 
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Pridružen/a: 01 lip 2009, 17:27
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Lokacija: Generalni konzulat HR HB za Slavoniju i Baranju
@ Glazbenik

You're absolutely right, Lovrenović uses this kind of extremist interpretation to justify his political views.

In the context of idea of nation, I completely agree with Džaja's views, nation is not a primordial state of society, but it's also not a fictional community invented, established and developed in the 19th century. It had a strong basis in ethnic, religious, linguistic and cultural diversity from before. :wink


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 Naslov: Re: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 06 svi 2015, 07:38 
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Pridružen/a: 10 lis 2013, 21:41
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Nevertheless, I liked Lovrenović disputes with Muhamed Filipović. :)


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 Naslov: Re: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 06 svi 2015, 10:03 
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Pridružen/a: 01 lip 2009, 17:27
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Lokacija: Generalni konzulat HR HB za Slavoniju i Baranju
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Nevertheless, I liked Lovrenović disputes with Muhamed Filipović. :)

Me too, he's definitely one of the best living medievalists, among Srećko Matko Džaja and Mladen Ančić, when we are speaking about Middle Ages of Bosnia and Hum. :wink


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 Naslov: Re: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 14 svi 2015, 06:47 
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Pridružen/a: 03 svi 2009, 10:29
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Lokacija: Institut za razna i ostala pitanja
The same story as with Dalmatia and/or Dubrovnik, even Slavonia. All were parts of the medieval Croatian kingdom, then divided between Venice, Austria and Hungary. As a result, the Croatian identity of these regions gradually faded away and, at its lowest point, we had the Illyrian movement and the reigniting of the spark of the Croatian identity. The name Kingdom of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia itself best illustrates the strength (or should we say, utter weakness/bare existence) of the common Croatian identity at that time. I remember the term "kampanelizam" (from Italian campanile, a church bell) from my history classes, which denotes a historic form of local-patriotism in some cities and regions. Nevertheless, this is by no means different from dozens German and Italian local kingdoms, duchies and republics before their unification in the 19th century.

Also, I believe that 99.99% of the 18th century population didn't have the slightest idea about any of the Croatian rulers from 7th-11th century, in fact many of them (kings) were long forgotten even by the clergy who did preserve some historical knowledge, and were subsequently rediscovered by the archeologists.

It's just how the things went in the Middle Ages.

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 Naslov: Re: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 15 svi 2015, 12:49 
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Pridružen/a: 24 vel 2012, 12:46
Postovi: 6569
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Pessimus dux je napisao/la:
Tuta je napisao/la:
Nevertheless, I liked Lovrenović disputes with Muhamed Filipović. :)

Me too, he's definitely one of the best living medievalists, among Srećko Matko Džaja and Mladen Ančić, when we are speaking about Middle Ages of Bosnia and Hum. :wink


No comment.

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Čast svakome, veresija nikome.

Jutarnji list, 16.11.2012., 8h:

Sudac Meron danas će pročitati konačnu presudu Hrvatskoj dr. Franje Tuđmana.


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 Naslov: Re: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 15 svi 2015, 16:13 
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Pridružen/a: 01 lip 2009, 17:27
Postovi: 5937
Lokacija: Generalni konzulat HR HB za Slavoniju i Baranju
SDB je napisao/la:
No comment.

?

No comment is also a comment. :D


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 Naslov: Re: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 16 svi 2015, 21:02 
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Pridružen/a: 24 vel 2012, 12:46
Postovi: 6569
Lokacija: kašeta brokava
Pessimus dux je napisao/la:
SDB je napisao/la:
No comment.

?

No comment is also a comment. :D


Definitely. It was meant as such.

_________________
Čast svakome, veresija nikome.

Jutarnji list, 16.11.2012., 8h:

Sudac Meron danas će pročitati konačnu presudu Hrvatskoj dr. Franje Tuđmana.


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 Naslov: Re: Dubravko Lovrenović on the Papal visit and other things
PostPostano: 03 lip 2015, 18:46 
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Pridružen/a: 18 kol 2009, 16:38
Postovi: 1101
Interesting read. I wonder if he follows the HB forum.... It is a very long article.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/03062015-b ... -analysis/


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