Rusko oružje je dobro za Ruse, možda još za Indijce, Pakistance i takve narode kojima su tisuće i desetine tisuća statistička greška, nikako za male narode kojima je stalo do svakog čovjeka.

Kupovati samo najbolje i najsuvremenije, istovremeno pokušati razviti domaću industriju. Ako se može izdvojiti stotine milijuna na stranu opremu, ne vidim razlog zašto se ne bi moglo izdvojiti par desetaka milijuna na domaće projekte.

Imaju Rusi lipih stvari od oružja - oruđa. Ne bih se bunio da i mi imamo nešto od toga.

Koliko mi je poznato, donirana su 2 (vjerojatno je i njihova cijena utopljena u preostale). Gdje ste to Vi našli podatak kako ih je donirano 50%?

Ako gledamo kroz prenapuhanu cijenu, onda zaista vrijedi i to više nego duplo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLf2zkGlB1E). Ako gledamo kroz praktičnu primjenu, obzirom kako će se BH koristiti kao transporteri (https://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/posao-s ... et-1589463), onda su oni duplo - lošiji. Još ako uzmemo u obzir kako su Mi117 plaćeni prebijanjem dijela klirinškog duga SSSR-a, a kod BH nema offseta...

Složio bi se kako je zapadna oprema bolja. Ali uspoređujete različite stvari. Kao da tvrdite, kako je SAD kaciga bolja od ruskog tenka (oboje imaju "oklop" i maskirnu boju). Za abnormalno višu cijenu, dobivamo (ukupno) - manju nosivost (vojnici, teret). Ne radi se tu o filozofiji, niti tu treba filozof, nego zdravi razum, domaćinsko razmišljanje i neki dobar trgovac iz Imotskog (po mogućnosti rabljenima autima).

Sa slabim ili nikakvim argumentima uporno bježite u Rusko - hrvatsku politiku. Nađite post u kojem neki hrvatski "rusofil" pati za MiGovima, pa se zbog toga protivi nabavci Rafale-a ili priznajte kako ste to izmislili. Što se tiče Mil-ova, ne vidim problem u tome da ih se mijenja, zapadnim helikopterima, nego ono što tvrdim je kako je ovo loš posao, a ne "uspjeh" kako nam to žele podvaliti HDZovci.
Dobar posao bi bio da su Milovi zamijenjeni nečim zapadnim istog kapaciteta u jednakom broju. Ili da su BH nabavljeni (po nekoj razumnoj cijeni) ili donirani, a Mil zadržani kao "leteći autobusi". Možda i nešto treće, ali ne ova bedastoća.
Kao u principu i svaki primjer, kada "sadimo tikve" sa prijateljima, ispadne nekako loše po nas. Uvijek je tu nešto iznuđeno, ali s tim moramo živjeti. Nevjerojatno je jedino kako na glupe fore HDZovci pokušavaju prodati "*** pod pitu" i pušionu kao uspjeh.

Što to BH može učiniti, da Mil ne može (i obratno), a da pritom bude bolji u čuvanju "svakog čovjeka" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97OGWTfObQw)? Pogođeni raketom padaju i jedan i drugi.

Inače u igranom filmu to nije realno prikazano, ali Amerikance u Somaliji zapravo su spasili Pakistanci (ne helikopterima).

Nije zdravo i nije za hvaliti se, ali radije bi američki fast food, nego ruski kavijar ili japanski sushi. Ma zapravo, najradije - ćevape.

Helilopter više manje, oni su naprosto rizični sami po sebi, ali razlika u oklopu je konkretna.

Nemoj mi persirat i pisat traktate.

Do sad je kupljeno 2, donirano 2. Ovo je drugih 8.



Stranica prije.

Za sve ostalo nemam potrebe ništa braniti.

Mi117 su nam stigli sa oklopljenom kabinom i naoružanjem. Naoružanje su naši uklonili, za oklop ne znam. No realno, pogođeni s nečim iole ozbiljnijim i Mi117 i BH - padaju dolje. Koji oklop i banane...
Pametno korišteni, oni se ne bi smjeli naći u situaciji da ih se gađa puškama.

Najnovija vijest koja kola društvenim mrežama!

Kuvajt šalje svoje 84vorke u Ukrajinu. Oni će prvo ići na remont u HR.
Zauzvrat HV dobija švicarskih 25 tenkova Leopard A4.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-05-24/

https://en.topwar.ru/235302-serbskaja-p ... raine.html

Što mi imamo od tog Leoparda?

Zaboravili ste vijest od prije par mjeseci kako put Europe (Hrvatske) idu izraelske Merkave. Čisto trolanje. ĐĐ nema kapacitet za takav veliki remon u kratkom roku, pogotovo jer je sada zauzet Bredlijima.

Leopard se nije proslavio u Ukrajini.

Tko to tvrdi?

Ono što je realno, Rafali i uvedba dronova, te njihova spcijalizacija i usavršavanje.
Veliki plan bi bio nabavka pravih i modernih znatnih zračnih i PZO snaga, a prijeko potrebno je ono što najviše nedostaje, tvornica municije.

I ništa bez sveobuhvatnoga pristupa koji uključuje školovanje, proizvodnju i gospodarstvo, i to u međunarodnim projektima. Doba solo impresionizma je prošlo.

Serbian press: Croatia will modernize a batch of Kuwaiti M-84AV tanks for subsequent transfer to Ukraine

Nevjerovatno koliko ovi srbi lažu.
Hrvatska državna firma ĐĐ iz Broda više ne postoji! RH je prodala firmu stranim investitorima!
To je sad u Brodu češka firma dio Holdinga nekakvog češkog kriminalca povezanog sa USA.

Moraš priznati da su zapadnjaci podcjenili rusiju, rusku tehniku i rusku ratnu mašineriju. Na stranu tko za koga navija, ali opet su se pozali nevjerojatno žilavi.

Ne izgleda loše, ali opet nedostaju detalji.
Tko plaća Česima u ĐĐ remont (modernizaciju?), rad, materijal, modernu opremu? Hrvatska, Kuvajt, SAD ili EU? Ukrajina sigurno - ne. Bilo bi dobro, ako to plaćaju stranci, a RH dobije Leoparde kao neku nagradu - donaciju. Ako ne, onda bi trebalo usporediti cijene te modernizacije (100 tenkova) sa donacijom ovih 25. Tko je na kraju u plusu ili minusu?
Da li će sa ovim kuvajtskim tenkovima, otići i ovi hrvatski M84 koje danas imamo? Onako po hrvatski - skrivečki, skrivečki...

Da Zapad stvarno želi Rusiju na koljenima, davno bi im uveli prave sankcije i naoružali Ukrajinu do zuba.

Točno.

Ovo sr@nje na kapaljku pokazuje njihovu usranost. To je kad se bojiš realno nuklearne eskalacije, a u svim bi sukobima nešto mućkao a sam si mućak.

Ne vjerujem u bajke o karmi, no golemi zločin u Vijetnamu nije naplaćen ni 5%.

https://www.amazon.com/Kill-Anything-Th ... 1250045061

This is one of the most shocking books which, as a historian, one has ever read.

In the sixties many people and most students were against the war. Everybody knew some of the nasty things that were reported about the Vietnam war but no one knew that the weekly body count was surprisingly generated by the intentional and almost universal killings of civilians, kids and the elderly year after year to boost the body count which, in turn, was used to maximize military promotion and rest and relaxation time and awards and recognition, etc.
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My Lai was investigated by the Pentagon and it resulted in a policy to prevent similar info from getting out and Turse discovered docs related to this and this seems to have gotten him going. My Lai pales in comparison to the ongoing and constant massacres of 10 to 130 civilians seemingly unbelievable week after week, month after month, year after year. In fact, on the same day of My Lai another massacre of more than 90 civilians took place not far from My Lai at My Khe. Besides this, 3 million Vietnamese were exposed to herbicide and dioxin---we knew that already. The very bizarre habit on part of many GIs was the collecting of body parts as souvenirs, hanging cut off ears around the neck (we knew that, too, but not the scope) and on rare occasion even, sorry to say so, a male genital. General Patton himself, son of WW II General Patton partook in this atavistic and brutal custom when decapitated heads were boiled to remove the flesh and thus he kept a skull on his desk and even carried it during his farewell party.
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McNamara and the DOD, using finely honed computer analysis, decided to run the war and achieve victory using one simple metric - once the bad guys were being killed at a rate that exceeded their replacement capabilities the war would be won. The key input for this calculation became known as the body count, and the bigger the number the closer the USA was to victory. This metric for success was agressively pushed down the chain of command, all the way down to the company level. Junior officers spent six to twelve months of trigger time in Vietnam; how they performed during this combat experience would have a direct bearing on their career advancement. The outcome of this mix was obvious in advance - measures would be taken to maximize the killing, and this fed right down to the platoon level; units "under perfoming" would be kept in the generally hellish conditions of the field longer, those "doing well" would be rewarded with R&R, extra beer rations and so forth. Layer on this an almost universal racial hatered of the Vietnamese (gooks, slopes, etc.) held by most combat troops - and many of their superiors - and a recipe for disaster was at hand, and it happened.

It was decided that the best way to maximize the body-count strategy was to implement a policy called "draining the sea." Vietnamese farmers, the vast majority of the population, would be "encouraged" to move into new settlements or urban areas thereby opening up vast swaths of the country (40%) as free-fire zones that could be pounded with indiscriminate air, artillery and sea launched munitions. Turse details the staggering amount of iron bombs, artillery shells, napalm, phosphor munitions, defoliants, and cluster bombs dropped on the country. As for the latter, one B-52 run could unlease 7.5 million ball bearing munitions in less than a square kilometer; one favored bombing area, the Iron Triangle near Saigon, took 4,000 bomb or artillery hits per square kilometer. In addition, US bulldozers plowed under an estimated 2% of the county's land mass. How did this work out for the locals? Not so good. These mostly remote farming villages usually got the word they would be in a free-fire zone when leafletts rained down the day before death from above was going to be delivered; unfortunately, most were illiterate. Those who left for their "new homes" supplied by the USA discovered that about all that was provided was a razor wire-chain link fence enclosure in which the peasants were expected to fend for themselves. Many went to the cities and the urban population exploded from around 12% of the population to nearly half. Vast slums were created with lakes of sewerage and rampant disease, even including plague. Infant mortality was 36%, and prostitution the main money maker. The prison system for "political deviants" would have made Torquemada blanche.

Many Vietnamese stayed in their villages because of family ties and, more importantly, farming was their only source of income. They built bunkers for protection against the next artillery or air bombardment. These were death traps when US ground troops arrived. Grenades were routinely tossed in these shelters while others set about burning down the village, slaughtering livestock and blowing up food supplies, and all-too-often raping the women and killing the inhabitants in cold blood. Village occupants were near universally women, old men, and children. In 1969 the slaugher of over 500 Vietnamese at My Lai got some media attraction, but as Turse covers in some detail, even getting the press to come forth with this story was a real push, and subsequent documented "incidents" were seen as "too hot to handle" by the US media not willing to offend the glorious administration in D.C. or the military. The book supplies almost endless examples of other My Lai incidents and the futile efforts of a number of troopers to get the story out; virtually all of these attempts were totally mushroomed by local commands, the Pentagon, or members of Congress.

This ethnic cleansing operation was not limited to the local unit command structure. In Operation Speedy Express duing the late 1960s in a command that covered the Mekong Delta, Vietnam's most densely populated area, the general in charge exerted huge pressure on those below him to get the body county up, and in this was quite successful: On average in the county, US troops suffered one casualty for every eight inflicted on the enemy. In the Mekong they got the ratio up to 1:134. This statistical anomoly didn't raise an eyebrow at the Pentagon. "Running" was considered to be a killing offense. As one helicopter machine gunner related, if hovering over some Vietnamese did not cause them to run, a short burst put near their feet would, and then they could be mowed down. One general in charge of a more northern command was more creative: He'd go out daily in a helicopter with a good supply of grenades, spot farmers working in their fields and you can guess the rest.

This book is painstakenly researched and well written. The cover up of the civilian slaughter carried out by both the political and military classes was near perfect. Documents uncovered by the author produced by the after-the-fact secret Pentagon task force known as the Vietnam War Crimes Working Group not only confirmed incidents reported by soldiers on the ground but in many cases show claims of attrocities were actually under stated. But that's all history now. Speedy Express alone is estimated to have killed about twice as many civilians than 9/11. Ad magnum gloria. To end on another generally unknown aspect of this war - unknow as it was carried out in secret - between 1964 and 1973 the US flew 580,344 bombing missions in Laos, dumping more than two million tons of ordnance on the country (more tonnage than dropped on Europe in WWII), equal to a planeload of bombs every 8 minutes, 24-hours a day, for 9 years. 270 million cluster bombs were dropped, an estimated quarter of which did not detonate - then. Now 40 years on, less than 1% of these munitions have been destroyed and more than half of all confirmed cluster munitions casualties in the world have occurred in Laos, a gift that keeps on giving.

Jako bitno ko je vlasnik. SAD nisu vlasnik ni jedne fabrike oruzja na planeti pa prave oruzje kao ludi. Jel to onda nije americko oruzje?

Promašio si argument, sve tvornice oružja u USA su u vlasništvu amerikanaca.

Kakve veze čeh ima sa Hrvatskom, trebalo je reć česi ili češka firma obnavljaju tenkove za Ukrajinu u Hrvatskoj.

Evo ti još jedan argument
Ako iz tvornice streljiva u BiH (ne znam jel državna ili privatna) šalju streljivo Hamasu, hoćeš li se ti složit sa naslovom "Srbi naoružavaju Hamas" jer i srbi su konstitutivni narod u BiH iz koje se šalje oružje.

Ovo je točno. Potpuni je promašaj hrvatskih vlasti što nemaju ili državnu, ili tako strukturiranu proizvodnju oružja da je jednostavno u domaćim rukama, kakav god bio udio udio države u vlasništvu. Tako je sa svim prouzvođačima oružja- SAD, Njemačka, Frnacuska, Italija, Japan, Izrael, Švedska,...

Ne bih rekao da su podcjenili pa Rusi su uvijek znali ratovati, ali je činjenica da Rus nema kvalitetan čelik kao Nijemac ili Amerikanac i da su Rusi stoljećima naučili ratovat na način da ne žale ljudstvo i da melju s brojem dok ne samelju. Ukrajincima možda još mogu prodat tu foru, ali s obzirom na demografiju i trendove to im je zadnje i s vremenom će shvatiti da je to stvar prošlosti, ali trenutno ne znaju drukčije, to je dio njih i njihovog mentaliteta, tako je oduvijek.