Nemamo dio za TV, pa stavljam ovdje.
Gledao sam drugi dio Milića o Turskoj, i stalno
mi se nameće....islamska civilizacija je teško spojiva s
naprjedkom.

U Turskoj gradovi rastu, ljudi se muvaju, trude, rade,..
no sve je to uspjelo-ili još uspijeva- zbog prijetnje
sekularizirane vojske. Stalno islamska tupava teokracija
prijeti, i stalno je to uphill battle.

Kemal paša je bio genije, da njega nije bilo doista
ne samo da ne bi bilo moderne Turske, nego bi zemlja pala
u rupčagu islamizma bar nekoliko puta od Ataturkove smrti.

I tu se postavlja pitanje- mogu li se istinski religijske civilizacije
kao islamska i hinduistička, esencijalno modernizirati ? Kad imaju
šerijat ili dharmu ? Kad im vjerski propisi određuju praktički sve
u životu ?

Muslimani i Hindusi se intenzivno mrze, no slični su
u teokratskoj zaostalosti gdje pojedinac može uspjeti, no
društvo kao takvo.....

Osima zapada, žuti sa konfucijansko-budističkom tradicijom
(Japanci, Korejci, Kinezi, Thai,..) pokazali su se kao praktični i pragmatični.
Uče, rade, školuju se,... Dok je ovo dosta forsirano.

Stvarno bih htio da Turci "uspiju", no mislim da je Huntington
bio u pravu kad ih je nazvao zemljim podijeljena identiteta
(bio je u krivu kad je Rusiju strpao u taj koš, jer su Rusi
zapadnjaci, što god oni o tom mislili).

Tako je. Ovo boldirano je točno. Rusko pravoslavna civilizacija je zapadna civlizacija. To je jednostavno na kraju krajeva naš zapadnjački civilizacijski krug.

Kod Huntigtona mi je ta teza o posebnosti te civlizacije uvijek "visila".

Turci su strasno podjeljenog identiteta. Tesko se nadje neka sredina. Drze se neke tradicije, drzanje do tradicije nije lose, al je to u njihovom slucaju po nasem "zapadnom" shvacanju strasno izaostalo.

Medjusobno nisu nimalo tolerantni. Ako si recimo "moderan" a mnogima to ne odgovara, odmah ti pripisu sve lose sto si zamisljaju.
Nisu otvoreni prema drugim kulturama i uporno zele nametnuti svakom svoju kulturu, svoj nacin zivota.
To je jedan od razloga zasto ih zapadna europa ne voli, da ne kazem mrzi.

turska je jedna od najnaprednijih islamskih zemalja,preciznije zemalja sa većinskim stanovništvom islamske vjeroispovjesti jer turska nije islamska zelja u punom značenju te riječi, ali po mnogim zapadnim parametrima još uvijek zaostala, i čisto sumnjam da će ikada ući u krug zemalja eu, naime nisam siguran da će se turci ikada odreći obrazca ponašanja prema kurdima i ostalim manjinama, takođe bez obzira što islam nije državna religija on ima velik uticaj na način života i ponašanje samih turskih građana, naručito u ruralnim sredinama, što baš i nije spojivo s europskim civilizacijskim krugom.

Da ne idemo u nijanse: mislim da nijedna zemlja
islamoga civilizacijskoga kruga ne može postati
moderna ili postmoderna u uobičajenom smislu riječi.
To bi značilo da je- bar kao dominirajući model-
u pravilu:

*školovanje i obrazovanje visoko cijenjeno
*da postoji znantsvena, tehnološka i društvena inventivnost
*da je stanovništvo pismeno u preko 95%
*da nema diskriminacije žena po univerzalno prihvaćenim kriterijima
*da su individualne i kolektivne vrijednosti dominirajuće svjetovne
*da nema dominirajuće totalitarne ideologije
*...

Ili:

* u SAD se pojavljuju razni luđački pokreti (David Koresh,..),
no to su marginalije
* nema totalitarne ideologije koja bi prožimala sve pore društva, a da
se može odbaciti. Sada je primjer Sjeverna Koreja, no kad padne taj
režim, ostat će veliki problemi u izmrcvarenom narodu, u
hrpi mučitelja i zlotvora....no od te ideologije ne će ostati ništa.

U islamskim je zemljama problem što:

*vjerska ideologija određuje sve, od prehrane do društvenih
kontakata, položaja raznih grupacija u društvu do društvenih vrijednosti.
To je u kršćanstvu nestajalo od 15-18. st., i više nije dominirajuće.
Slično je u kratkom vremenu s istočnom Azijom.

*nema unutarnje sile koja bi samu tu religiju dovela u pitanje
i modernizirala. Nema tamo Luthera. Nema tekstualne kritike Kurana.
Nema propitivanja unutar same religije. Nema preispitivanja
propisa koji se odnose na praktične vidove života.
Ili svjetovnost, i to radikalna, ili islamizam. Ili svjetovna, ili
vjerska diktatura.

Zato sam skeptičan glede modernizacije islamskih i hinduističkih društava.

Ako im se oduzme temelj na kojima su nastale te države - islam , što ostaje ?

Gledam malo ove muslimanske stranice na netu i gdjegod da okreneš svugdje tečaj arapskog i tekstovi na arapskom.

Kao sto sam negdje procitao: Islam je medij za besplatno širenje arapskog jezika i kulture.


http://www.studio-din.com/modules/Kurs_ ... index.html

Što ostaje Japancima, Kinezima, Korejcima,...
Nacionalne kultura oslobođena zatupljujućih naplavina prošlosti.

Srž pitanja je: koliko toga ima u islamu kao fenomenu
života (a ne arheologije ili povijesti umjetnosti), a da
ne spada u kategoriju zatupljujućih naplavina prošlosti ?

Kako bi moglo doći do neke reformacije unutar Islama i ulaska te religije u 21 stoljeće? Ovo je već starija vijest. Je li iko čuo neki nastavak ove priče?


Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts
By Robert Pigott
Religious affairs correspondent, BBC News


The scholars say they are returning to the original values of Islam
Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.

The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.

The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad.

As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia.


This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation. Not exactly the same, but... it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion

But the Turkish state has come to see the Hadith as having an often negative influence on a society it is in a hurry to modernise, and believes it responsible for obscuring the original values of Islam.

It says that a significant number of the sayings were never uttered by Muhammad, and even some that were need now to be reinterpreted.

'Reformation'

Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion.

Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion.


Some messages ban women from travelling without their husband's permission... But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone

Turkish officials have been reticent about the revision of the Hadith until now, aware of the controversy it is likely to cause among traditionalist Muslims, but they have spoken to the BBC about the project, and their ambitious aims for it.

The forensic examination of the Hadiths has taken place in Ankara University's School of Theology.

Fr Felix Koerner, a Christian theologian who has observed the project, says some of the sayings - also known individually as "hadiths" - can be shown to have been invented hundreds of years after the Prophet Muhammad died, to serve the purposes of contemporary society.

"Unfortunately you can even justify through alleged hadiths, the Muslim - or pseudo-Muslim - practice of female genital mutilation," he says.

"You can find messages which say 'that is what the Prophet ordered us to do'. But you can show historically how they came into being, as influences from other cultures, that were then projected onto Islamic tradition."


The argument is that Islamic tradition has been gradually hijacked by various - often conservative - cultures, seeking to use the religion for various forms of social control.

Leaders of the Hadith project say successive generations have embellished the text, attributing their political aims to the Prophet Muhammad himself.

Revolutionary

Turkey is intent on sweeping away that "cultural baggage" and returning to a form of Islam it claims accords with its original values and those of the Prophet.


Women are re-examining their portrayal in the scriptures
But this is where the revolutionary nature of the work becomes apparent. Even some sayings accepted as being genuinely spoken by Muhammad have been altered and reinterpreted.

Prof Mehmet Gormez, a senior official in the Department of Religious Affairs and an expert on the Hadith, gives a telling example.

"There are some messages that ban women from travelling for three days or more without their husband's permission and they are genuine.

"But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because in the Prophet's time it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone like that. But as time has passed, people have made permanent what was only supposed to be a temporary ban for safety reasons."

The project justifies such bold interference in the 1,400-year-old content of the Hadith by rigorous academic research.

Prof Gormez points out that in another speech, the Prophet said "he longed for the day when a woman might travel long distances alone".

So, he argues, it is clear what the Prophet's goal was.

Original spirit

Yet, until now, the ban has remained in the text, and helps to restrict the free movement of some Muslim women to this day.


There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment... This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them

As part of its aggressive programme of renewal, Turkey has given theological training to 450 women, and appointed them as senior imams called "vaizes".

They have been given the task of explaining the original spirit of Islam to remote communities in Turkey's vast interior.

One of the women, Hulya Koc, looked out over a sea of headscarves at a town meeting in central Turkey and told the women of the equality, justice and human rights guaranteed by an accurate interpretation of the Koran - one guided and confirmed by the revised Hadith.

She says that, at the moment, Islam is being widely used to justify the violent suppression of women.

"There are honour killings," she explains.

"We hear that some women are being killed when they marry the wrong person or run away with someone they love.

"There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment by uncles and others. This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them."

'New Islam'

According to Fadi Hakura, an expert on Turkey from Chatham House in London, Turkey is doing nothing less than recreating Islam - changing it from a religion whose rules must be obeyed, to one designed to serve the needs of people in a modern secular democracy.

He says that to achieve it, the state is fashioning a new Islam.

"This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation," he says.

"Not exactly the same, but if you think, it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion. "

Fadi Hakura believes that until now secularist Turkey has been intent on creating a new politics for Islam.

Now, he says, "they are trying to fashion a new Islam."

Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy.

They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones.

"You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura.

"You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology.

"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."

Znam za tu incijativu, no to je snažno krenulo, i...
nekako stalo.

Tako nekako , problem islama (kao religije isprepletene u politici i društvu, ne govorim o vjeri , da netko ne shvaća pogrešno!!) i jeste evolucija ljudskih odnosa.Osim Turske , a i to je na pedale , koja zemlja , u kojoj prevladava islam , je sekularna ?

Nema nijedna, ali ima tu raznih stupnjeva slobode.

Uz Tursku, tu najviše slobode ima u Indoneziji i Maleziji jer ipak nisu Arapi i često furaju po svojim običajima, a Islam je na te prostore ipak došao relativno kasno. A opet se u Indoneziji (Bali) desio jedan od najvećih terorističkih napada na zapadne državaljane od Sep 11. U bombaškom napadu 2002 je poginulo 200+ turista, većinom Australci.
Libanon je po nekim pitanjima prilično sekularan ali to je samo zahvaljujući kršćanima kojih ima 30-40%.
Iako je Iran pod vlasti ajatola, ipak je po nekim pitanjima (sloboda žena, sloboda manjina) mila majka u poređenju sa svojim susjedima.
Koliko sam primjetio, ovi arapi iz Sjeverne Afrike (Maroko, Alžir, Tunis) isto imaju određenih sloboda koje su nezamislive u epicentru srca tame (Saudijska Arabija).

Imam negdje nekoliko dobrih članaka napisanih od patriotskih Amerikanaca (dakle defitivno ne neke kripto-komunjare ili Rusofili) u kojima kritiziraju američku politiku koja i dalje od Rusa pravi neprijatelje. Tvrdi da je propuštena zlatna šansa da se Rusija definitivno uvede u zapadni krug (smatra da su trebali biti pozvani u NATO). Ima razumijevanja za rusku paranoju glede okruživanja i ulaska svojih susjeda u NATO jer se ipak radi o zemlji koja je u zadnjih 200 godina napadnuta i bila na rubu opstanka čak 3 puta.

Pa to je i logično. Netolerancija smanjuje konkurentnost i tržište. Ako ne zaposliš sposobnog jer je katolik, a zaposliš nesposobnog jer je hindus, kao posljedica u tvrtki rade nesposobni. Još gore, ako je taj "podobni" direktor e onda imaš ekonomsku efikasnost na razini socijalizma.