smrt je normalno stanje.. . jednostavno objašenjenje je da je u nama instalirano ono instiktivno da ne želimo umrijeti.

Nije normalno, tj. neprirodno je. Smrt je "uljez" u našoj stvarnosti, koji se pojavio padom u grijeh.

Zašto bi onda Bog stvorio mesoždere? A i biljojedi često moraju uzrokovati smrt biljke da bi sebe održali na životu. Dakle, u tom pogledu je smrt sasvim normalna i nužna pojava u prirodi.

Ako govoriš samo o ljudima kao nekim posebnim bićima izuzetima iz tog prehrambenog lanca, pa valjda bi ih Bog onda stvorio potpuno različite od životinja, a ne sa organima namijenjenim za iste metaboličke procese kao i životinje.

Vegetarians in Paradise

God allowed Adam and Eve to eat plants and herbs, a privilege he granted also to the animals (Gen. 1:29-30). And humans and animals enjoyed a peaceful and friendly relationship in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:19-20).

It was only after the Flood that permission was granted to eat animal flesh, and only then under the condition that the blood was drained out of the meat (Gen. 9:3-4). We may take this as indication that meat-eating was not ideal, although God certainly blessed the eating of meat in other times and places (Lev. 6:24-29 Acts 10:9-16).

The Bible's description of the new earth and new heaven uses categories that hark back to the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Life will bear 12 different types of fruit year-round, one for each month, and its leaves will heal the nations (Rev. 22:2). There will be no need for temple or sacrifices, sun or moon, because God's presence will provide all that is needed. The Bible ends as it began, with a luscious garden in which God rules supreme and his people enjoy him forever.

A vegetarian diet appears to be the ideal before the fall of Adam and Eve, and our lives in the New Jerusalem will reflect that paradise in many ways. How do Isaiah 11 and 65 fit in? They identify the new world order established by a king from the line of David (). This new order will be one of peace and tranquility. Since it also brings peace to predator and prey (), perhaps this means we will not eat meat in the fulfilled kingdom.

24.3 (...) and you shall have no rest; you shall hunger and you shall be sated and you shall be afflicted by bitterness (...)

24.4 and the beasts which you ruled will rise up against you malignantly, because you transgressed my commandment and did not observe it.'

25.1 God turned and said to me, 'Because you obeyed the serpent and transgressed my commandment, you shall suffer torments and pains.

25.2 You shall bear many children and at the time of birth you shall bring your life to an end and, from your great agonies and pains

25.4 (...) In pain you shall bear children and in pity you shall return to your husband and he will rule over you.'

26.1 After he had said all this to me, the Lord became very angry at the serpent (...)

26.2 Be withheld from your foods which you used to eat. Dust will be your food and you shall go upon your breast and your stomach; your feet and hands will be withheld

26.3 and your ears will not hear, and none of your limbs. A likeness of the cross will bring my son to the earth, because of him whom you deceived. Be disabled and broken because of the evil of your heart.

And on that day was closed the mouth of all beasts, and of cattle, and of birds, and of whatever walks, and of whatever moves, so that they could no longer speak: for they had all spoken one with another with one lip and with one tongue.
And He sent out of the Garden of Eden all flesh that was in the Garden of Eden, and all flesh was scattered according to its kinds, and according to its types unto the places which had been created for them.

1.1 When Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise they made for themselves a tent and spent seven days mourning and lamenting in great sadness.
2.1 But after seven days they began to be hungry and sought food to eat and did not find any.
2.2 Eve told Adam: "Adam, my lord, Then Eve said to Adam: "My lord, I am hungry. Go, seek for us something to eat. Perhaps the Lord God will look upon us and have mercy on us and will call us back to the place where we were previously."
3.1 And Adam arose after seven days and And Adam arose and walked for seven days over all that land but did not find food such as they had in paradise.
3.2 Eve said to Adam: "My lord, would that I might die. Perhaps then the Lord God would bring you back into paradise, for it was because of me that the Lord God grew angry with you. Do you wish to kill me, that I might die? Perhaps the Lord God will bring you back into paradise, since on account of my action you were expelled from there."
3.3 Adam responded: "Don't say such things Eve lest the Lord God bring upon us some other curse. How could it be that I should raise my hand against my own flesh? Let us arise and seek for ourselves something by which we might live so that we might not perish."
4.1 Walking about, they searched for many days but did not find anything like they had in paradise. They only found what animals eat.
4.2 Adam said to Eve: "The Lord gave these things to animals and beasts to eat. Ours, however was the angelic food.
4.3 But justly and worthily do we lament before the face of God who made us. Let us perform a great penitence. Perhaps the Lord God will yield and have mercy on us and give us something by which we might live."

10.1 Thereafter, Seth and Eve went in the direction of the Garden. As they were going, Eve saw that a wild beast was fighting with her son Seth and was biting him. Eve began to weep and she said,
10.2 ' When that the day of Judgement came; all sins will be blamed upon me and men will say, 'Our mother did not hearken to the commandment of the Lord God!'
10.3 Eve called out against the wild beast and said, 'O wild beast, how do you not fear the image of God, that you dared to fight with the image of God'? How was your mouth opened and your fangs bared, and your hair stood on end'? How did you not remember the obedience which you formerly displayed, that your mouth was opened against the image of God'?
11.1 Then the wild beast cried out and said to Eve, 'In truth, our insolence is because of you, for the example came from you.
11.2 How was your mouth opened to dare to eat of the fruit concerning which God commanded you not to eat of it until he will change all of our natures?
11.3 Henceforth you are unable to resist that which I speak to you, or if I begin to rebuke you'.
12.1 Then Seth said to the wild beast, Close your mouth, O Satan. Get away from the image of God until the day will come on which God will bring you to rebuke'.
12.2 Then he said to Seth, 'Behold, I am standing apart from you, the image of God'. The beast fled from him.

And God blessed Noe and his sons. And he said to them: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth. [2] And let the fear and dread of you be upon all the beasts of the earth, and upon all the fowls of the air, and all that move upon the earth: all the fishes of the sea are delivered into your hand. [3] And every thing that moveth and liveth shall be meat for you: even as the green herbs have I delivered them all to you: [4] Saving that flesh with blood you shall not eat. [5] For I will require the blood of your lives at the hand of every beast, and at the hand of man, at the hand of every man, and of his brother, will I require the life of man. Genesis 9, 1-5

Ne vidim u tim odlomcima odgovor na pitanje zašto bi Bog stvorio ljude sa istim metaboličkim organima kao i životinje, ako su ljudi zaista posebni i izvorno besmrtni...

Drugim riječima, ako su Adam i Eva stvarno bili stvoreni kao besmrtna bića i hranili se "anđeoskom hranom", čemu im je služio probavni trakt? Koji je smisao metabolizma, ako su tjelesno besmrtni?

Ja znam da ovo vama zvuči kao banaliziranje, ali ovo su sasvim legitimna pitanja.

Prvo je Bog stvorio ljude i životinje da jedu slatko voće iz Edena. Životinje su mogle govoriti i bile su pitome. Probava je služila da probave plodove iz Edena.

Probava = metabolizam. Metabolizam = tjelesna smrtnost.

Je li zmija u Edenskom vrtu bio Sotona utjelovljen u zmiji? To nije bila obična životinja zmija. Bog je prokleo običnu životinju zmiju, koja nije ništa kriva što je vrag odabrao njen oblik. Zašto je prokleta obična životinja, da će puzati i jesti zemlju cijeloga života svoga? Ljudi na Bliskom istoku nisu znali da daleko u dijelovima Pacifika postoje i morske zmije, koje ne puze i ne jedu zemlju. One su oslobođene Božje kletve, kao i ljudi u onim krajevima u kojima nema zmija?

15.1 Then Eve began to weep and said, "Come near me and I will tell you this way, how our sin took place.
[44]15.2 At the time when your father was guarding the lot of his portion which had been given to him by God and I was guarding in my lot, at the southern and western side.
[44]15.3 Satan went to your father's lot, where the wild beasts were. He summoned the serpent and said to him, 'Arise, come to me!'
[44]15.4 For God had divided the wild beasts and given them to us--the male ones he gave to your father and the female ones he gave to me. We used to nourish them according to whichever of us it had been allotted.

[44]16.2 Satan said to the serpent, 'Arise, come to me and I will tell you something which is of profit to you'.
[44]16.3a Then the serpent came to him and Satan said to it, 'I hear that you are wiser than all the wild animals and I have come to see you. I found that there is none like you in your cunning among all the animals. Even as Adam gave nourishment to all the wild beasts, so also you did."
[44]16.3b And then, when the wild beasts went to worship Adam, Satan went with them and said to the serpent, 'Why do you worship Adam every morning? You came into being before him: why is it that you, who are the former one, worship the later? Rather should the younger worship the older.
[44]16.3c Why do you worship Adam or why are you fed by Adam and are not fed by the fruit of the Garden ? Come on, rise up, come to me and hear what I say to you. Let us expel Adam from the Garden like us so that we may re-enter the Garden'.
[44]16.4 The serpent said, 'In what way or how can we expel him from the Garden?' Satan said to the serpent, 'Be you, in your form, a lyre for me and I will pronounce speech through your mouth, so that we may be able to help.

[44]17.1 Then the two of them came to me and hung their feet around the wall of the Garden. When the angels ascended to the worship of the Lord, at that time Satan took on the form of an angel and began to praise God with angelic praises. I knelt down by the wall and attended to his praises.
[44]17.2a I looked and saw him in the likeness of an angel; when I looked again, I did not see him.
[44]17.2b Then he went and summoned the serpent and said to him, 'Arise, come to me so that I may enter into you and speak through your mouth as much as I will need say'.
[44]17.2c At that time the serpent became a lyre for him, and he came again to the wall of the Garden. He cried out and said, 'Oh, woman, you who are blind in this Garden of delight, arise come to me and I will say some words to you'.
[44]17.2d When I went to him, he said to me, 'Are you Eve'?' I said, 'Yes, I am'. He replied and said, 'What do you do in the Garden '?'
[44]17.3 I said to him, 'God set us to guard the Garden',
[44]17.4 Satan replied and said to me through the mouth of the serpent, 'This work is good, but come, do you eat of all the trees which are in the Garden ?'
[44]17.5 I said to him, 'Yes, we eat of all of them except only of that one tree which is in the very middle of the Garden, concerning which God commanded us, "Do not eat of it, for if you eat you will surely

[44]18.1 Then the serpent said, 'As the Lord lives, I am greatly concerned about you for you are like beasts, since God has withheld it from you, but I do not wish you to be ignorant. Come on, come and eat of the tree, and you see what honour will be yours'.
[44]18.2 I said to him, 'I fear lest I die as God said to us'.
[44]18.3 The serpent, together with Satan, replied and said to me, 'As the Lord lives, you will not die, but when you eat, your eyes will be opened and you will become like God, knowing good and evil.
[44]18.4 But God knew that you will become like him; he deceived you, that he said, 'Do not eat of it '.
[44]18.5 And he said, 'Look at the tree and see what glory is around the tree'. When I looked at the tree, I saw that great glory was around it. I said to him,
[44]18.6 "The tree is good and it looks pleasing to me, but I cannot go and take of the fruit: I am afraid. Come here! If you are not afraid, bring me of the fruit and I will eat, so that I may know whether your words are true or not'. Then the serpent called to me and said, 'Come, open the gate for me and I will enter and I will give you of the fruit'.

[44]19.1 When he entered, he proceeded a little way into the Garden and stopped, I said, 'Why did you stop?' He said to me, 'Perhaps, when I shall give you to eat and your eyes are opened and you become like God, you will deceive Adam and will not give him to eat of the fruit and he will become like a beast before you. But you, if you wish, swear to me truly that you will give him to eat, and will not deceive your husband Adam'.
[44]19.2 I said to him, 'I do not know any oath by which I can swear to you, but I will say to you that which I do know: By the plants of the Garden and by the Cherubs and the Seraphs and by the Father who sits in the heavens to descend to the Garden, if I eat and learn everything, I shall not withhold, but I will give to my husband Adam to eat'.
[44]19.3 When he had caught me through an oath, he then led me and brought me to the tree and he went forth to the tree. He set the deception in its fruit,4 that is desire of sins, harlotries, adulteries, greeds. He lowered the branches of the tree to the earth. Then I took some of the fruit and I ate.

Satan's Encounter with the Beast - [go to original Greek]

16.1 And the devil spoke to the serpent saying, "Rise up, come to me and I will tell you a word whereby you may have profit." And he arose and came to him.
16.2 And the devil said to him: "I hear that you art wiser than all the beasts, and I have come to counsel you.
16.3 Why do you eat of the tares of Adam and his wife and not of paradise? Rise up and we will cause him to be cast out of paradise, even as we were cast out through him."
16.4 The serpent said to him, "I fear lest the Lord be wroth with me." The devil said to him: "Fear not, only be my vessel and I will speak through your mouth words to deceive them."

Pa ne mora biti uzaludno ako nađeš neki drugi smisao u svemu tome.

Ne znam zašto bi smisao života morao uključivati vječni život mene ili tebe kao jedinki.

smrt je normalno stanje. milijardama godina si mrtav (ne postojiš), pa si onda 80god živ, pa onda opet milijardama godina si mrtav. imati priliku biti živ, što je dakle astronomski mala šansa, je nešto prekrasno. treba bit zahvalan na svakom danu kad si živ i uživati u tome.
s druge strane veći dio našeg društva je u nemogućnosti nositi se sa smrću, pojedine kulture čak i izbjegavaju korisiti termine "umro je" ili "mrtav je" ili "smrt", npr. englezi imaju izraz passed away. mi o smrti ne pričamo, oporuke većinski ne pišemo, s njome se ne suočavamo kad se približi ili dogodi. smrt je za našu kulturu taboo. jednostavno objašenjenje je da je u nama instalirano ono instiktivno da ne želimo umrijeti.
od tog straha od smrti nastale su i čitave religije koje pokušavaju životu i smrti dati neki smisao, pa tako kršćani vjeruju u uskrsnuće i zagrobni život, neki drugi vjeruju u reinkarnaciju, treći u energiju i duhove. ogromnoj većini ljudi je smrt toliko zastrašujuća da odbijaju razmišljati o njoj kao jednostavnoj činjenici koja nas sve čeka. ono, ako je išta sigurno to je da ćeš umrijeti. zapravo, trenutno je to jedino sigurno za sve nas na ovom topiku i na ovom svijetu - umrijet ćemo i više nas neće biti
planino, prolazi li te jeza od te neizbježne činjenice?

Ne umire se (samo) zbog metabolizma. Proces biološkog starenja je preopširna tema.

Ha dobro, šta da ti kažem pajdo, ima nas svakakvih, sretno sa tom kombinacijom smisao + ateizam.



Dašta, neizbježna činjenica, kaže Đeremi10 sa hb.orga koji je prevazišao sve poznate filozofe, znanstvenike, mistike itd. koji se oko ovih pitanja lome tisućama godina.

Ja ne govorim o metabolizmu kao uzroku smrti nego o besmislenosti metabolizma kod besmrtnih bića. A vi eto tvrdite da su Adam i Eva stvoreni kao tjelesno besmrtni.

Čemu im je onda služio metabolizam u rajskom vrtu? Čemu im je služio probavni trakt? Zašto bi besmrtno biće imalo takav mehanizam ugrađen u svoje tijelo, ako znamo koja mu je funkcija?

ignoriranje smrti kao gole činjenice koja nas sve čeka i njene mistifikacije i strah od ultimativne kazne je morbidan u smislu da oko drugih stvari ne postoji takav odnos. pa evo, gotovo svaki eufemizam se odnosi na smrt https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eufemizam
i kad smo kod mog forumskog imena - u gotovo svim vjerovanjima je samoubojstvo big no jer time negiraš život/boga, te posljedično tomu ideš drito u pakao. zanimljivo nick je iz pjesme koja govori o istom, ten je naziv albuma

king jeremy the wicked, ruled his world

https://consequenceofsound.net/2018/11/pearl-jam-jeremy-mother/

priznajem, malo i troladišem. ne uzrujavaj se

Da uživaju u plodovima iz Edena?

A nije postojao način da uživaju bez jedenja tih plodova? Bez procesa probave i odlazaka na wc? Ili je to još jedna od stvari koja "nije mogla drugačije" iako je Bog svemoguć?

Opet kažem, zvuči kao banaliziranje, ali ovo su sasvim legitimne primjedbe. Znamo čemu biološki služe probavni organi i čemu služi metabolizam, a to je održavanje organizma na životu (dakle, smrtnog bića). Nema nikakvog smisla zašto bi Bog besmrtne ljude stvorio s tim organima.

Ja ne govorim o metabolizmu kao uzroku smrti nego o besmislenosti metabolizma kod besmrtnih bića. A vi eto tvrdite da su Adam i Eva stvoreni kao tjelesno besmrtni.

Čemu im je onda služio metabolizam u rajskom vrtu? Čemu im je služio probavni trakt? Zašto bi besmrtno biće imalo takav mehanizam ugrađen u svoje tijelo, ako znamo koja mu je funkcija?

However, there are a myriad of modern scholarly interpretations regarding the term הדעת טוב ורע, "the knowledge of good and evil", in Genesis 2–3, such as wisdom, omniscience, sexual knowledge, moral discrimination, maturity, and other qualities. To date, Nathan French has offered the most extensive overview of the various scholarly interpretations in the history of research chapter found in the published version of his doctoral dissertation, wherein he contends for an interpretation of this term as "the knowledge for administering reward and punishment," suggesting that the knowledge forbidden by Yahweh and yet acquired by the humans in Genesis 2–3 is the wisdom for wielding ultimate power.

- Stvorenja, živi organizmi, dakle sam život, egzistiraju po Božjim Zakonima, npr homeostaze, samim tim im je potrebna energija jer su stvorena bića, ovisna o Božjem djelovanju u materijalnom svijetu.
Dizajner - inž. napravi, dizajnira npr motor koji koristi naftu za svoj rad. Tako su i organizmi dizajnirani sa određenom svrhom i načinom korištenja energije za svoju egzistenciju.

Previše se zajebavate oko Knjige Postanka. Baš ta knjiga ima drugačiji stil pisanja od svih drugih knjiga Biblije.

Stvorio na svoju sliku znaci imati samosvijest, inteligenciju itd. Očito na svoju sliku ne znači da je Bog izgledao kao čovjek