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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 18 pro 2023, 02:34 
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What if the story, instead, is a metaphor? What if, instead of being about obedience to The Eternal, it is really about the dangers of religious fanaticism? What if, instead of The Eternal testing Abraham, Abraham is testing The Eternal?

There are a couple of ways to look at it. One way is to take The Eternal stopping Abraham not as an external vision as portrayed in the text, but rather an internal triumph of human compassion over a fanatical zeal that could lead a person to do violence in the name of God. This, in and of itself, would be a rebellious notion in an age when human sacrifice was not unheard of.

But perhaps even more rebellious is the idea that Abraham was testing The Eternal, calling The Eternal's bluff. Abraham has already called The Eternal to the carpet once, challenging God as the Judge of all the earth to do justly. What's to keep Abraham from doing it in this instance as well?

This would explain the silence, as well as the language of the text where Abraham indicated to the servants that both he and Isaac would return, and later to Isaac when he said that God would provide the ram for the offering. For the Judge of all the earth to do justly, the Eternal could not let Abraham kill his own son. If Abraham knew this, he could have been seeing how far things would go, but with no intention to actually go through with the sacrifice. And if The Eternal had not stopped him, Abraham himself would have stopped it and probably would have had another little chat with God about doing the right thing.


https://reformjudaism.org/blog/binding-isaac-new-look-old-story


Autorica članka: Karen Humphrey is a liberal Jew who is currently living in central Texas and is committed to Judaism and Jewish learning.

Reform Judaism, also known as Liberal Judaism or Progressive Judaism, is a major Jewish denomination that emphasizes the evolving nature of Judaism, the superiority of its ethical aspects to its ceremonial ones, and belief in a continuous revelation which is closely intertwined with human reason and not limited to the theophany at Mount Sinai. A highly liberal strand of Judaism, it is characterized by little stress on ritual and personal observance, regarding Jewish law as non-binding and the individual Jew as autonomous, and by a great openness to external influences and progressive values.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 18 pro 2023, 02:45 
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Rabbi J. H. Hertz (Chief Rabbi of the British Empire) wrote that child sacrifice was “rife among the Semitic peoples,” and suggests that “in that age, it was astounding that Abraham’s God should have interposed to prevent the sacrifice, not that He should have asked for it.” Hertz interprets the Akedah as demonstrating to the Jews that human sacrifice is abhorrent. “Unlike the cruel heathen deities, it was the spiritual surrender alone that God required.”


Citat:
Many readers have noted Abraham’s prophetic Freudian slip. he says “I and the boy will go there, bow down, and we will return to you”. Many classical rabbinic commentators hold that Abraham knew that Isaac wouldn’t die.


Citat:
Let’s also consider the view of Shlomo Hakohen Rabinowicz (1825 – c.1865) known as the Tiferet Shlomo, after the title of his classic work. Mark Kirschbaum writes

To him the word “nisayon” does not mean a test, there was no test here, and neither God nor Abraham read it this way. He states that the root of the word nisayon are the initial Hebrew letters “NS“, an acronym for “Somech Noflim“, meaning ‘support for those who are falling’, in this case, for those failing or flagging in spiritual resolve.

The purpose of this exercise was not to test Abraham, but rather as a ritual, a way for Abraham, mystical archetype of Love, to symbolically/textually bind Yitzhak, mystical archetype of Severity and Judgement, thus creating an eternal symbol of spiritual yearning overcoming personal self judgements of inadequacy and failing.

This strengthening of the weak needed to be done right at the beginning of Jewish history, where all the future descendants of the Abrahamic message are represented by Isaac, son of Abraham. Thus the akedah becomes a spiritual ritual enactment, a mystical exercise, meant as a symbol of will overcoming self doubt.


https://merrimackvalleyhavurah.wordpress.com/2022/03/03/the-ethics-of-the-binding-of-isaac/


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The ethics of the Binding of Isaac
The Binding of Isaac – עֲקֵידַת יִצְחַק – is a story in the Hebrew Bible. God tests Abraham by asking him to sacrifice his son, Isaac, on Mount Moriah.

Abraham “bound Isaac, his son” before placing him on the altar, giving the story it’s Hebrew name – the Akedah – הָ)עֲקֵידָה) – the binding.


The Sacrifice of Isaac by Caravaggio (1603)
In our annual liturgical reading of the Torah this story is found in parasha Vayera, Genesis 18:1–22:24.

In many readings this is one of the most ethically challenging parts of the Bible.

The Bible states that God tests Abraham, by asking him to present his son, Isaac, as a sacrifice on Mount Moriah. No reason is given within the text. Abraham agrees to this command without arguing. According to the text, God does not want Abraham to actually sacrifice his son; it states from the beginning that this is only a test. The story ends with God stopping Abraham at the last minute and making Isaac’s sacrifice unnecessary by providing a goat to be sacrificed, which had become caught in some bushes nearby.

Context matters: Where and when did Abraham and Isaac live? What was the culture of this time and place?

Modern readers – and even medieval Bible commentators – often misunderstand Biblical stories and commands, as they tend to read the text in the light of their own present-day culture. But Abraham and Isaac from the Bronze age of history, in a region that historians call the ANE, Ancient Near East.

It is a fact that in that time and place some cultures that sacrificed human beings to their gods – sometimes even their own children. Indeed, the Torah itself tells us

Do not act this way toward the Lord your God, for these people performed for their gods all manner of abominations that the Lord hates. They even burned their sons and daughters for their gods. – Devarim 12:31

Our Bible tells us that even centuries after the time of Abraham, pagans, including kings, practiced child sacrifice. Consider the story of King Mesha of Moab, 9th century BCE. Baruch Margalit writes

[During a war] when the alliance besieged the Moabite capital of Kir-Hareseth, the Moabite king Mesha, in desperation, sacrificed his eldest son to the god Chemosh. King Mesha offered the crown prince as a burnt offering on top of the city wall in full view of the enemy forces (2 Kings 3:26–27).



Rabbi J. H. Hertz (Chief Rabbi of the British Empire) wrote that child sacrifice was “rife among the Semitic peoples,” and suggests that “in that age, it was astounding that Abraham’s God should have interposed to prevent the sacrifice, not that He should have asked for it.” Hertz interprets the Akedah as demonstrating to the Jews that human sacrifice is abhorrent. “Unlike the cruel heathen deities, it was the spiritual surrender alone that God required.”

We should focus on the peshat, and that requires reading it light of the ancient near-east where it was written. The Torah is a rebuke and transmogrification of the surrounding pagan ideologies. That includes a rebuke of pagan child sacrifice.

How did the ancient Israelites, and the later rabbis of classical Judaism, understand this story? A midrash tells us

R. Yose says: My son Elazar says three things about this [verse]: “Which I did not command” – in the Torah, “which I did not speak” – in the ten commandments, “and which I never considered” – that a man would sacrifice his son on the altar.
Others say: “Which I did not command” – with respect to Yiftah, “which I did not speak” – with respect to Mesha, the king of Moav, “and which I never considered” – that Avraham would sacrifice his son on the altar.

Sifrei Devarim #148

One understanding of the text is that God inspired Abraham in this episode in order to teach him a lesson, in order to stop human sacrifices from happening.

Many readers have noted Abraham’s prophetic Freudian slip. he says “I and the boy will go there, bow down, and we will return to you”. Many classical rabbinic commentators hold that Abraham knew that Isaac wouldn’t die.

Jewish ethical readings of the Akedah
The early rabbinic midrash Genesis Rabbah quotes God as saying “I never considered telling Abraham to slaughter Isaac (using the Hebrew root letters for “slaughter”, not “sacrifice”).

Rabbi Yona Ibn Janach (Spain, 11th century) wrote that God only demanded a symbolic sacrifice.

Rabbi Yosef Ibn Caspi (Spain, early 14th century) wrote that Abraham’s imagination led him astray, making him believe that he had been commanded to sacrifice his son. Ibn Caspi writes “How could God command such a revolting thing?”

The early Hassidic teachers were deeply uncomfortable with the idea that God wanted Abraham to kill Isaac. They didn’t read the Torah as teaching such a thing, and instead offered other ways to understand this story.

Levi Yitzchok of Berditchev (1740–1809), also known as the holy Berdichever, or the Kedushas Levi, taught that the very idea of Abraham actually sacrificing Isaac, or any person sacrificing any other was person, is senseless. Mark Kirschbaum writes

Similarly, the Kedushat Levi points out that Avraham, who in the Midrash is frequently described as one who fulfilled all 613 mitzvot intuitively, without a command (because of his autonomous intuition as to what actions would bring him closer to God) needed in this particular case to be commanded, because Abraham could not intuit any sense of meaning or value in this action.

Justification for his sense that there was no sense to the original command is that in the end he was commanded not to sacrifice Yitzhak, proving the senselessness of the first three days.

The Kedushat Levi adds, and in this is followed by R. [Abraham isaac] Kook, the sense of the whole exercise is in fact the senselessness of using human life as a means of sacrifice. The point of the text is the non-sacrificing of Yitzhak, thus for the initial (senseless) command.

Mark Kirschbaum, Perashat Vayera- The Non-Sacrifice of Isaac, 11/1/2012

Let’s also consider the view of Shlomo Hakohen Rabinowicz (1825 – c.1865) known as the Tiferet Shlomo, after the title of his classic work. Mark Kirschbaum writes

To him the word “nisayon” does not mean a test, there was no test here, and neither God nor Abraham read it this way. He states that the root of the word nisayon are the initial Hebrew letters “NS“, an acronym for “Somech Noflim“, meaning ‘support for those who are falling’, in this case, for those failing or flagging in spiritual resolve.

The purpose of this exercise was not to test Abraham, but rather as a ritual, a way for Abraham, mystical archetype of Love, to symbolically/textually bind Yitzhak, mystical archetype of Severity and Judgement, thus creating an eternal symbol of spiritual yearning overcoming personal self judgements of inadequacy and failing.

This strengthening of the weak needed to be done right at the beginning of Jewish history, where all the future descendants of the Abrahamic message are represented by Isaac, son of Abraham. Thus the akedah becomes a spiritual ritual enactment, a mystical exercise, meant as a symbol of will overcoming self doubt.

Rabbi Kalonymus Kalman Shapira, also known as the Aish Kodesh, or the Piaseczna Rebbe, wrote how our matriarch Sarah protested the Aekdah with her own soul.

Based on the commentary of Rashi, and Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer, he writes –

“It is also possible to argue that Sarah the Matriarch, who was so heartbroken with the binding of Isaac that her soul burst forth, did so for the benefit of the Jewish people, to demonstrate to God how it is impossible for the Jewish people to tolerate excessive afflictions….

It seems that Sarah may have sinned by forsaking the remaining years of her life, had she not chosen to be so heartbroken over the binding of Isaac. Since, however, she forsook them for the benefit of the Jewish people… [Sarah] “died in order to show God that a [person] should not be expected to suffer unlimited levels of anguish.”

An Orthodox view: Kierkegaardian suspension of the ethical
On his blog Alan Brill writes

“I repeatedly hear from a generation of Modern (or Centrist) Orthodox youth, who grew up at the end of the twentieth century, that they were told that Torah Judaism is about adopting a posture of submission in which one’s individuality and moral intuitions are suppressed. Representative students of Rabbi Joseph Dov Soloveitchik publicly taught in the 1990’s and beyond that to accept divine authority one needed to sacrifice individuality for the sake of the tradition.”

This sacrificial religiosity was in origin based on Rabbi Soloveitchik’s use of Soren Kierkegaard’s ideas from Fear and Trembling on the need for a teleological suspension of the ethical as exemplified in Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac as a divine command despite the violation of the command not to murder.

But after Rabbi Solovietchik’s death, it became globalized to the prosaic. To affirm the divine and follow the true nature of the halakhah meant that one must be prepared to override their ethical judgement.

This ideology trope was, and is, so pervasive in some sectors of Modern Orthodoxy [that] pulpit rabbis who never read ‘Fear and Trembling’ exhort their congregants that one needs to consider the entire halakhah as above ethical concerns or moral critique.

All discussion of the morality of the law is precluded. Rather than limiting the sacrifice of Isaac to an extraordinary one-time prophetic event, the suspension of the ethical in order to follow halakhah becomes incumbent upon all of us.

Rabbi Ysocher Katz writes

“Ultimately, the suspension of the ethical is inescapable.” and “it seems clear to me that if you are orthodox, his theological construct is inescapable”

“Kierkegaard is the contemporary observant person’s Rorschach test. If you are orthodox, you have to (tremblingly!) embrace his theological premise that worship of God will inevitably demand of you the suspension of the ethical-at least sometimes…. We have to accept that God can sometimes be amoral, not immoral. God transcends ethical categories and therefore is neither moral nor immoral, only amoral.”

Critique of Kierkegaardian Orthodoxy
From within the Orthodox world there has been some strong pushback against Orthodoxy’s worldview on this issue.

Aaron Koller responds:

This is a modern problem, and that Jews more than a couple of hundred years ago would not have agreed with you. They may have been troubled by certain mitzvot and halakhot, but they took it for granted that there were answers to those questions, because of course the Torah is ethical.

I’ll give one quick random example, out of many. Ramah (R. Meir Abulafia, 1170-1244, Spain), in a letter on the laws of the עיר הנדחת (published in Lifshitz, סנהדרי גדולה, 1.186 [in the back]), asks:

“And further, that which [the Rambam] said, ‘and we execute the children’ – far be it from God to do evil! (Job 34:10) Where have we ever found that a child is liable, that this one should be liable?” (ותו דקאמר “מכין את כל הטף”, וחלילה לאל מרשע! [איוב לד, י] וכי היכן מציגו קטן חייב, שזה חייב?)

So if you are right that any Orthodox Jew will have to adopt a Kierkegaardian perspective, I would frame the question as distinctive to modernity, not definitional to Judaism.

[The Orthodox view is] … God doesn’t need to be ethical, but that the mitzvot can violate all ethics – and that this is just to be accepted, not contested.

Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks ztz”l writes

The story is about the awe and love of God. Kierkegaard wrote a book about it, Fear and Trembling… What Abraham underwent during the trial was, says Kierkegaard, a “teleological suspension of the ethical,” that is, a willingness to let the I-Thou love of God overrule the universal principles that bind humans to one another.

Rav Soloveitchik explained the episode in terms of his own well-known characterisation of the religious life as a dialectic between victory and defeat, majesty and humility…

These are the conventional readings and they represent the mainstream of tradition. However, since there are “seventy faces to the Torah,” I want to argue for a different interpretation.

The reason I do so is that one test of the validity of an interpretation is whether it coheres with the rest of the Torah, Tanakh and Judaism as a whole. There are four problems with the conventional reading:

We know from Tanakh and independent evidence that the willingness to offer up your child as a sacrifice was not rare in the ancient world. It was commonplace. …
Child sacrifice is regarded with horror throughout Tanakh. Micah asks rhetorically, “Shall I give my firstborn for my sin, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” and replies, “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.”…
How could Abraham serve as a model father if he was willing to sacrifice his child? To the contrary, he should have said to God: “If you want me to prove to You how much I love You, then take me as a sacrifice, not my child.”
As Jews – indeed as humans – we must reject Kierkegaard’s principle of the “teleological suspension of the ethical.” This is an idea that gives carte blanche to a religious fanatic to commit crimes in the name of God.It is the logic of the Inquisition and the suicide bomber. It is not the logic of Judaism rightly understood. God does not ask us to be unethical. We may not always understand ethics from God’s perspective but we believe that “He is the Rock, His works are perfect; all His ways are just” (Deut. 32: 4).
To understand the binding of Isaac we have to realise that much of the Torah, Genesis in particular, is a polemic against worldviews the Torah considers pagan, inhuman and wrong… Each family had its own gods, among them the spirits of dead ancestors, from whom it sought protection and to whom it offered sacrifices. The authority of the head of the family, the paterfamilias, was absolute. He had power of life and death over his wife and children….

The Torah is opposed to every element of this worldview. As anthropologist Mary Douglas notes, one of the most striking features of the Torah is that it includes no sacrifices to dead ancestors.[7] Seeking the spirits of the dead is explicitly forbidden.

…The principle to which the entire story of Isaac, from birth to binding, is opposed is the idea that a child is the property of the father….

Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks ztz”l, Rabbi Sacks on Parsha, The Binding of Isaac, OU website

Maharat Ruth Friedman writes

God is sending us a clear message that the Akedah is a unique set of circumstances that should never be replicated. It is the exception, not the rule. The God of the Torah does not desire human sacrifice and will not be appeased by it.

Orthodox Rabbi David Fried, editor at thelehrhaus.com, discusses this in his Reclaiming the Akeidah from Kierkegaard. He looks at Abraham’s responses to God’s intention to destory Sodom and Gomorrah, to banish Yishma’el, and finally the test in which Abraham believes that he is to sacrifice Yitzchak.

What if Abraham had reacted differently at Sodom? What if he had inquired all the way down to one? What if he had been able, from the beginning, to fully come to terms with Lot’s failings? Perhaps, then, God could have revealed His attributes of mercy to Abraham. Perhaps He could have told Abraham that Lot would be saved on Abraham’s behalf. Perhaps Abraham could have asked for the cities to be saved as a pure kindness the way Lot himself did with Tzo’ar (Genesis 19:18-22). Perhaps the entire akeidah would not have been necessary.

Non-Orthodox Judaism never accepted the Kierkegaardian attitude that one should leap beyond ethics. Conservative Rabbi Milton Steinberg lashes out against the Kierkegaardian attitude:

“Nor does anything in Judaism correspond to Kierkegaard’s teleological suspension of the ethical. From the Jewish viewpoint—and this is one of its highest dignities—the ethical is never suspended, not under any circumstance and not for anyone, not even for God. Especially not for God!”

The same from Conservative Rabbi Robert Gordis

When the Akedah narrative is read in the larger context of the book of Genesis, it offers no support for the doctrine of “the teleological suspension of the ethical.” Just four chapters earlier, when God reveals his decision to destroy the sinful cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham does not hesitate to dispute the decision…

Here there is no hint of “submission” by the “knight of faith” to the incomprehensible will of God. Abraham feels that God’s decision is in violation of the ethical law and he expresses his unshakable conviction that God cannot violate the principles of righteousness, “Shall not the Judge of all the earth act justly?”…

How, then, can Abraham, himself, have submitted to an active violation of the ethical law? In view of Abraham’s ringing affirmation of the binding character of the moral law, how is this uncomplaining acceptance of God’s command to sacrifice his son to be understood?”

Robert Gordis, “The Faith of Abraham: A Note on Kierkegaard’s Teleological Suspension of the Ethical” Judaism 25 (1976): 414-419

Parallels to Yishma’el, Abraham’s other son
Written while at Yeshivat Har Etzion, Rav Michael Hattin offers us a penetrating essay, Akedat Yishma’el.

“it should therefore not come as a surprise that Parashat Vayera itself concludes with proverbial fireworks of the spiritual sort: the episode of the Akeda. While often we tend to analyze the episode of the Akeda from its own entirely internal and self-contained text, this week we will consider the Akeda as it stands in comparison and contrast to another, seemingly dissimilar event: the sending away of Hagar and Yishma’el.”

Also from Yeshivat Har Etzion, Rav Amnon Bazak writes about Akedat Yitzchak – The Double Test, carefully studying the many deliberate parallels between the tests of sending away Yishma’el and Yitchak.

Related articles & books
“Unbinding Isaac: The Significance of the Akedah for Modern Jewish Thought” Aaron Koller, 2020

“The chapters that comprise the core of the book presents the Kierkegaardian approach, followed by a chapter on the modern Orthodox acceptance of the Kierkegaardian approach by Yeshayahu Leibowitz and Rabbi Soloveitchik, and finally a critique of Kierkegaard’s approach.”

M


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 18 pro 2023, 10:27 
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zalutala je napisao/la:
Zašto si tako škrt? Treba postaviti cijeli članak, zanimljiv je i dosta više kaže od tih par citat koje si izvukao :zubati


U smislu preglednosti foruma nisam pristalica kopiranja cijelih članaka.

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Abraham went along with God’s instructions precisely because he had faith that God would in the end not allow him to sacrifice his son. Faith is not the same as belief. If Abraham believed that God would stop him from sacrificing Isaac, it wouldn’t have been a test. It’s a test because this certain belief is absent. All Abraham has to go on is faith. Too often we confuse belief with faith. While belief is comforting, faith requires a great emotional and mental leap beyond one’s comfort zone.


https://www.thejc.com/judaism/rabbi-i-have-a-problem/what-kind-of-message-does-the-story-of-the-binding-of-isaac-send-jag48moe


Oxford languages je napisao/la:
belief
an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something).


Oxford languages je napisao/la:
faith
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
a strongly held belief.


https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-is-the-difference-faith-and-belief.html#google_vignette
https://www.gotquestions.org/faith-vs-belief.html

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Kako je cijela priča mogla izgledati iz Abrahamove perspektive ?

Abram,

Citat:
Why was so much of Abraham’s life concentrated in the Negeb and the Kadesh-Shur areas? It was W. F. Albright who answered that question. History had always thought of Abraham as the leader of a migrant people whose wealth was concentrated in flocks and herds. But this Kadesh-Shur area is totally unrelated to that theory because of its meager rainfall. Although flocks were an asset in Abraham’s business life, he would have gone bankrupt in one year if he had concentrated his flocks here. Abraham’s major wealth in the Kadesh-Shur area could come from only one possible source, namely the caravan business.


https://www.biblia.work/sermons/abrahamas-archaeology-knows-him-part-i-abraham-the-caravaneer/

Citat:
Abraham petitioned the Lord on behalf of Sodom (Hebrews 7:23-26). Abraham proposes that if there are fifty righteous within the city, this should exempt the whole city from destruction. Abraham asks God for His divine mercy which becomes a pattern for other intercessors (1 Samuel 7:5-9, 12:19-25; 2 Kings 4:33, 6:15-20; Exodus 32:11-13,31-34, 33:12-15; Numbers 12:11-13, 14:13-19). Abraham likely conducts this bargaining much as he bargained and traded in his business. Since Abraham was prosperous, we should not be surprised that Abraham was an excellent trader.


https://thebiblesays.com/commentary/gen/gen-18/genesis-1823-26/

sklapa ugovor sa Bogom.

Citat:
12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2
“I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]
3
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”(b)

4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Harran. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Harran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.


Dakle, Abramova ugovorena obaveza je "Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you" koju je ispunio i tada je ugovor dopunjen sa

Citat:
6 Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring[c] I will give this land.” So he built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.


što se može vezati za "I will make you into a great nation" gdje toj naciji (https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/the-nations/) obećava dati teritorij. Potomci njegovi na toj zemlji.

Slijedi provjera je li ugovor ispunjavan u dobroj vjeri.

Citat:
A contract of good faith refers to the implied agreement that both parties will act in good faith and not stand in the way of the other party's performance.


https://www.upcounsel.com/contract-of-good-faith

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Abram se obogatio za vrijeme velike gladi a Bog na faraona poslao teške bolesti. Time je Bog ispoštovao dio ugovora.

Abram nema potomstva, Bog nije ispunio glavnu obavezu te stoga pojačava neispunjeno obećanje.

Citat:
14 The Lord said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, “Look around from where you are, to the north and south, to the east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring[a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you.”


Dodaje se odredba da se zemlja daje zauvijek i odredba da će potomstvo biti neprebrojivo.

Kao kasni s plaćanjem, pa se obvezuje da plaća penale.

Citat:
18 So Abram went to live near the great trees of Mamre at Hebron, where he pitched his tents. There he built an altar to the Lord.


Abram to prihvaća i poštuje Boga.

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Abram je pravedan zbog čega dobija blagoslove. Zbog toga je i odabran. No, i dalje nema potomstva. Bog ponavlja da je on zaslužan za Abramove uspjehe i obećava velike nagrade.

Citat:
15 After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision:

“Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,[a]
your very great reward.(b)”

Genesis 15:1 Or shield; / your reward will be very great


No, Abramovo povjerenje je poljuljano

Citat:
2 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”


Bog potvrđuje da je njegova obaveza pobrinuti se da Abram ostvari neprebrojivo potomstvo a Abram smatra pravednim da se Bog još pridržva tog dijela ugovora. I dalje nema odredbe do kada Bog treba ispuniti tu obavezu.

Citat:
5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[d] be.”

6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.


Sljedeći spor je teritorij

Citat:
7 He also said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”

8 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?”


Novi detalji ugovora su:
Precizira se teritorij, a zauzvrat će Abramovo potomstvo biti 400 godina u ropstvu, jer Amorejci još nisu zaslužili da im se oduzme teritorij.

Citat:
12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”


Citat:
18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

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Iuste ambulans coram Deo pretium non habet
Tko pronađe sarkazam nek si ga zadrži.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 20 pro 2023, 23:05 
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Abram raskida ugovor s Bogom.

Citat:
16 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, “The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.”

Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.


Dobija potomstvo, brojno no bez blagoslova.

Citat:
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”

11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12
He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward(b) all his brothers.”



Iz ovoga postaje jasno da je Abramu izvorni ugovor unosan samo ukoliko Bog ispuni sve obveze prema njemu.

Kao da je dobavljač velikog trgovačkog lanca, roba se dobro prodaje i ugled trademark-a mu raste, no plaćanje mu kasni. Kada prodaje izravno naplati sve, ali prodaja je skromnog obima.

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Iuste ambulans coram Deo pretium non habet
Tko pronađe sarkazam nek si ga zadrži.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 21 pro 2023, 20:37 
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Abramu je potreban Bog, jer mu je potrebno blagoslovljeno potomstvo. Bogu je potreban Abram jer je pravedan. Abram ima lošiju poziciju u pregovorima jer mu vrijeme odmiče. Bog to zna i kupuje ga.

Citat:
17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty[a]; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.


Bog Svemogući diktira Abramu koji se predao (odnosno u tom položaju prima ponudu) da preuzima njegov biznis, od sada se zove Abraham. On i njegovi potomci su uposlenici, zauvijek.

Citat:
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram(b); your name will be Abraham,[c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”


Kao potpis na ugovor o radu služi obrezivanje u trajanju zauvijek a važi i za dokupljene uposlenike.

Citat:
13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.


Bog kupuje i Saru i nju rebrandira.

Citat:
15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah.


Abraham, dok prihvaća novog gazdu svog društva, ne imajući povjerenje u drugu stranu koja mu preotima biznis, pokušava isposlovati blagoslov za potomstvo koje već ima.

Citat:
17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”


Bog pristaje.

Citat:
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.


Nakon toga Abraham potpisuje.

Citat:
23 On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him.


Abraham je u Išmaelu dobio blagoslovljeno potomstvo.

Za Abrama je ovo kao da je prodao udjele(većinski dio ili sve) svog biznisa velikom trgovačkom lancu koji ga je zavlačio ostajući uposlenik i od tog novca kupio sebi sa strane unosan biznis koji samostalno djeluje.

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Iuste ambulans coram Deo pretium non habet
Tko pronađe sarkazam nek si ga zadrži.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 22 pro 2023, 21:02 
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Jasno je da je Abraham sluga Božji.

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18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord,[a] do not pass your servant by.


Sada Bog i precizira kad stiže sin.

Citat:
10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”


I sina dočekaše.

Citat:
21 Now the Lord was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him.


I samo taj sin je bitan za nastavak priče.

Citat:
11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring[b] will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”


Stoga ga i naziva jedinim za Abrahama

Citat:
2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”


S obzirom na to da Abraham ipak već ima jednog blagoslovljenog sina, a ovaj koji se treba žrtvovati je od Boga obećani i za nastavak priče potrebniji Bogu nego Abrahamu, potrebno je proći test iz te perspektive.

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Iuste ambulans coram Deo pretium non habet
Tko pronađe sarkazam nek si ga zadrži.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 24 pro 2023, 10:47 
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Test je najbolje posmatrati iz perspektive onog koji ga je osmislio i koji ocjenjuje rezultate istog.

Citat:
12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”


Dakle, ne spominje se nikakav faith ili trust, već samo fear of God. Nikakva ljubav, vjera, poštovanje to nije.

Abraham je u trenutku testa isplaćen, stoga Bog testira je li postigao što je naumio. To je slijepa poslušnost pravednog čovjeka. Kupio ga je, cijena je sloboda duha, sloboda donošenja odluka, sloboda ići svojim putem. A strah od Boga(Božije kazne) jamči da je trampa trajna.

Citat:
15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring(b) all nations on earth will be blessed,[c] because you have obeyed me.”


Citat:
4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring[a] all nations on earth will be blessed,(b) 5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”


Metaforički gledano je Bog zakon, koji sam po sebi ne mora biti pravedan. Tek simbiozom sa pravednim čovjekom se dobiva privid pravednog zakona za sve ljude.

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Iuste ambulans coram Deo pretium non habet
Tko pronađe sarkazam nek si ga zadrži.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 24 pro 2023, 11:28 
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Strah djece od roditelja (roditeljske kazne) ne isključuje ljubav i poštovanje prema roditeljima, naprotiv. Ista je stvar u odnosu čovjeka i Boga.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 24 pro 2023, 12:43 
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Ne isključuje, ali i ne podrazumijeva. Naprotiv

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6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

_________________
Iuste ambulans coram Deo pretium non habet
Tko pronađe sarkazam nek si ga zadrži.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 24 pro 2023, 14:03 
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Kad je u pitanju odnos Boga i čovjeka podrazumjeva. Kad Bog zahtjeva strah to znači da zahtjeva strahopoštovanje koje ide isključivo na čovjekovu korist, nikako štetu. Čovjek koji ima strahopoštovanje prema Bogu od toga može imati samo korist, poštovanje Božijeg zakona je spas za čovjeka.

Ponovljeni zakon 6.
5 Zato ljubi Jahvu, Boga svoga, svim srcem svojim, svom dušom svojom i svom snagom svojom!
13 Boj se Jahve, Boga svoga; njemu iskazuj štovanje; njegovim imenom polaži prisegu.
https://biblija.ks.hr/ponovljeni-zakon/6


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 17:09 
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Ne podrazumijeva. Zato se i pojavljuje zasebno u ugovoru Boga i Mojsija.

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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 17:52 
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Podrazumjeva. Bog zapovjeda i jedno i drugo.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 17:55 
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Zapovjeda kad i kome ? Pokaži ugovor.

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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 18:11 
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Stavio sam link


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 18:28 
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Držim da je s tobom besmisleno raspravljati o postepenosti objave.

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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 18:30 
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Tako je to kad nestane argumenata


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 18:43 
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Tema je Abraham i žrtvovanje Izaka. Samim tim važe do tad sklopljeni ugovori.

Ubacivanje naknadno ubačenih odredbi koje su rezultat naknadno ispričanih priča (a u službi nekih drugih tumačenja) nije u okviru teme.

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Iuste ambulans coram Deo pretium non habet
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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 18:50 
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VBA2024 je napisao/la:
Tema je Abraham i žrtvovanje Izaka. Samim tim važe do tad sklopljeni ugovori.

Ubacivanje naknadno ubačenih odredbi koje su rezultat naknadno ispričanih priča (a u službi nekih drugih tumačenja) nije u okviru teme.


VBA2024 je napisao/la:
Ne isključuje, ali i ne podrazumijeva. Naprotiv

Citat:
6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 20:03 
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Neznam je napisao/la:
VBA2024 je napisao/la:
Tema je Abraham i žrtvovanje Izaka. Samim tim važe do tad sklopljeni ugovori.

Ubacivanje naknadno ubačenih odredbi koje su rezultat naknadno ispričanih priča (a u službi nekih drugih tumačenja) nije u okviru teme.


VBA2024 je napisao/la:
Ne isključuje, ali i ne podrazumijeva. Naprotiv



Neznam je napisao/la:
Strah djece od roditelja (roditeljske kazne) ne isključuje ljubav i poštovanje prema roditeljima, naprotiv. Ista je stvar u odnosu čovjeka i Boga.


Primjer iz Postanak 38. Koji ugovor važi tada ?

_________________
Iuste ambulans coram Deo pretium non habet
Tko pronađe sarkazam nek si ga zadrži.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 23:15 
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VBA2024 je napisao/la:
Neznam je napisao/la:



Neznam je napisao/la:
Strah djece od roditelja (roditeljske kazne) ne isključuje ljubav i poštovanje prema roditeljima, naprotiv. Ista je stvar u odnosu čovjeka i Boga.


Primjer iz Postanak 38. Koji ugovor važi tada ?

Isti koji vrijedi za Ponovljeni zakon 6, vječni savez.


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 Naslov: Re: Abraham
PostPostano: 25 pro 2023, 23:28 
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Nisu iste odredbe.

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